Gothmic Apparatus

But Interstate had a huge advantage: it already existed...
That said, I do hope Gotham goes big.

hhp

i really love their work and i'm a proud owner of 2 posters, but the thing that really makes me excited about them are the friendly and humorous sentences and statements on their site. clever and funny understatement.

I didn't know AA, and their graphic design is *great*.
Yes, I like Gotham better than many other senseless new Sans Serif faces (see Agfa Monotype's Scene for example, by Sebastian Lester: I really prefer his T-26 old release Equipoize).

It seems to me that designers are somewhat afraid to challenge themselves in new interpretations, and I do mean new, of other faces than sans serifs.

I wish to make a public excuse to Sebastian Lester, which has written me about his Scene.

I'm really sorry. Sometimes I forget I'm posting a message and not speaking privately in an e-mail with someone. And writing in a hurry might make you choose really wrong terms, in addition to an initial lack of respect.

As you, said, of course, it's not important the fact that I don't like Scene, and this is not the issue.

It was just an emotive (and not thoughtful at all) reaction, having seen shortly before the ad for scene Monotype published in Computer Arts, given my general dislike for this cathegory of contemporary Sans Serifs.

So, thank you for your letter. I strongly apologize for my unhappy use of words, which, of course, might be really offensive.

As long as we're on the new sans subject, what about Stainless? I think it's smart, well done and forward looking. Just my two cents.

Re: Scene. It's fine Claudio. Scene's been selling well, particularly in the conservative corporate identity market it was intended for. I'd hope this means that designers are finding it useful. If this is any measure of the success of a typeface - and I think it is - then I'm pleased.

Oh, and Stainless is great.

> It seems to me that designers are somewhat afraid to challenge themselves

So true.
Classic mass behavior: in the 90s everybody was breaking windows, and not even bothering to see what's inside, and now everybody is making pretty ligatures with the little finger in the air... Always look for the few that are going against the flow.

> it's not important the fact that I don't like Scene

Claudio, come on, my man! Of course it's important! How else could Sebastian learn and improve?! Selling fonts is great, but I'm sure he's interested in intrinsic value as well. You opinions matter, and as long as they're not motivated by bad feelings, they *help*. Please say something bad about Patria, I beg you.

hhp

>> it's not important the fact that I don't like Scene

>Claudio, come on, my man! Of course it's important! How else could Sebastian learn and improve?! Selling fonts is great, but I'm sure he's interested in intrinsic value as well. You opinions matter, and as long as they're not motivated by bad feelings, they *help*. Please say something bad about Patria, I beg you.

Yes, Hrant, but, as I have told Sebastian in my apologies the fact that I don't like Scene was not important related to my impulsive and unwillingly offensive response. It wasn't the point.
I have not done any constructive criticism on the current taste for the sans serif trend and by impulse I just said "senseless": an emotive and stupid definition.

I never go with the flow, but it does not harm if Sebastian or anyone else does something in line with the current taste to earn some money. We need to earn, after all.
Doing a critique of this trend involves a spectrum-wide social critique towards economic obsession, corporations, cultural flattening and spiritual numbness, and it is complex. Surely not a thing to be discussed quickly on a forum.
Probably I will address the issue in the future (with my typefaces, at least). So, I just expressed (badly) an emotive response I have towards these faces. Sorry again to Sebastian. To make things clear, I don't like many, many sans-serif faces of today, but not for the design, just for what they will be used for in certain conditions.

A month ago, or so, I started designing a typeface turning upside down my usual inspirations.
It was called "Uninvolved" and it was meant to be the most aseptic sans serif of all. The conceptual idea behind it was "type with me whatever you want and the opposite of it. I'm Uninvolved".

It was fun to think of a typeface with a lack of interest for the use people will make of it. I wasn't motivated stronly enough, and I had to work back on other faces, but someday I will finish it because for me is both a challenge and really interesting. It was based on the proportions of my Ogilve, by the way.

Thank you, Sebastian, for having accepted my apologies, and thank you Hrant for keeping alive criticism. You're right: we have to make criticism without listening to our impulsive reactions or bad emotive responses.

And... what is Patria? (you can send me an e-mail if it's a long explanation).

Best wishes to everyone here at typographica.

P.S. Rudy told me the next Emigre issue will be exactly on this strange state of sans serif and neo-geometric, corporate and detached design. I'm really curious.

> the most aseptic sans serif of all

It's already been done: FF Kievit. It's so generic, it's actually useful. But "genericity" changes over time, so maybe in a few years Kievet will acquire an expected character.

A recently unfinished :-/ version of Patria can be seen here and there. But don't be tempted to react too extensively here - just tell me the biggest thing wrong with it - I'm not kidding. Once Typophile.com reopens, then you could do a "full reaction" to it on their Critique Forum - I'd appreciate that greatly.

BTW, the next issue of Emigre does sound interesting.

hhp

That is sweet, Hrant, but I think the angles of your lowercase k and f might not be consistent.

That's the best you can do?! ;-) Actually, thanks.
The "k" is indeed "controversial".
But which angle of the "f" do you mean?

hhp

wow, look at this, it's only been down a few days and there's already a typophile forums surrogate! our dependence is _almost_ embarassing!

>A recently unfinished :-/ version of Patria can be seen here and there. But don't be tempted to react too extensively here - just tell me the biggest thing wrong with it - I'm not kidding. Once Typophile.com reopens, then you could do a "full reaction" to it on their Critique Forum - I'd appreciate that greatly.

No comment for now, as you desired, but I have to say that these Flash specimens are tricky. Often they show you what seems a flattened, bad curve, where a good curve is. Anyway, please, send me a pdf, jpg, gif or something, if you agree. I prefer to talk in personal correspondance rather than in forums.

I may only say that I find your Ss too wide (sorry: it's my roman taste, you know). Ciao!

I know what you mean about Flash, but I've tried to account for that (using the TT format helps a lot, for some reason), so any problem you see is probably my fault...

The "s": in terms of aesthetics, I did that on purpose, and the same with the "a", "e", "g" and "r". In terms of function, this wideness (in these letters, especially the "e") actually reduces readability a bit - but that's because I wanted to convey a certain masculinity. Hey, I'm not the dry functionalist you might think! :-)

hhp

Re: Patria

Well, Hrant. It seems I have a problem to get decent printouts from your swf Flash files from Explorer. I have a Xerox Phaser 3400 which usually prints very well even the tiniest size. I guess a Flash file has little to do with PostScript... I've never used Flash.

Anyway, the first impression I had was that there's too much incoherence between letters to have a "functional" typeface and too less to have a typeface with character.
It's difficult to comment because I have not clear if your main concern is to have a monotone-width text face (like Frutiger, Helvetica, Times) or a more varied one. The serif treatment seems not so regular, but the proportions are even too regular. And making letters more homogeneous in width... well, I think this not only reduces readability but works also against the characterization you're trying to give.

Honestly, I don't know. To me, when I get stuck with a design, the best is to make clear a primary goal, and subordinate all the others. Only at this point it's wise to ask the opinion of others, I think.
If your primary goal is an homogeneous width you have to sacrifice characterization. Otherwise, if your goal is characterization, you have to vary the widths.
In both cases I feel too much elements in play and a certain incoherence in the serifs treatment.

As I have said, I'm sorry but I am unable to judge in this way. Usually when I comment or ask for comments I swap beta versions with friends. In general, I never go ahead with other weights if I'm dubious over the first one I'm designing.

I realize that this is not so helpful, but the fact that homogeneous width is one of the things I usually avoid does not help me to be genuinely critical. Sorry! :-(

Claudio, your comments are very interesting, and useful. But since this is not the place, let's wait for Typophile.com to get back on line.

hhp

Twin Cities weekly The City Pages recently did a nice lil story on Aesthetic Apparatus , and you can view it here.

Are they supposed to look like an Emigre clone?

hhp

I hope that’s sarcasm, Hrant. AA is everything Emigre isn’t.

>Are they supposed to look like an Emigre clone?
>I hope that’s sarcasm, Hrant. AA is everything Emigre isn’t.

Sorry, but I feel like I'm missing some piece...
Emigre and Aesthetic Apparatus aren't supposed to be static elements, let's say, stone bricks, right?
We have seen up and downs in Emigre's work and the same will be for AA, I suppose.

Aesthetic similarities are natural, and in some cases stimulating. Look at the era (late 1920s) which has brought us Futura, Gill Sans and Kabel (not to mention each national relative of them, like our italian face Semplicità, which I hope to resurrect digitally someday).

Design is often good, when it's not an end in itself.
And the posters of AA looks really stimulating (a little bit expensive).

If someone wishes to send me a gift (who am I kidding?) one of those would be great. It would be interesting to read an interview with them, anyway.

I mean an interview with the designers, not the posters (yes, maybe I will end up interviewing posters, given my lack of concentration...)
Sigh...

I guess I need to look harder.

hhp

> I hope that’s sarcasm, Hrant. AA is everything Emigre isn’t.

yeah, like sincere.

fyi, other really great poster artists currently producing great stuff:

nick butcher - http://www.programmablepress.com
serigraphie populaire: http://www.seripop.com
patent pending - http://www.thepatentpending.com/
jay ryan (and co.) - http://www.thebirdmachine.com/

yep.

Stephen: I hope that’s sarcasm, Hrant. AA is everything Emigre isn’t.
Kevin: yeah, like sincere.

How are you measuring sincerity?

I think Emigre is more sincere than average. RvL himself certainly seems to be the opposite of politician (which he's pointed out himself), and that's a good thing.

However, this one time something really jumped at me. I think it was in the last free issue, where there was a full page, large-type plea not to pirate fonts. The tone of it was very gracious, but what bothered me was their focus on the statistic that 1 out of 2 people don't pay for the Emigre font they use. I'd go into what the public claim of such a ridiculously low estimate might mean, but at this point I'd rather be nice.

hhp

>How are you measuring sincerity?

With a SinceroMeter™, what do you think?