Posters for Peace

Thank you, Joshua. I've been hoping someone would gather the work of fine designers for free distribution among those who stand for peace. It appears the site's author is seeking no credit at all. Admirable.

Here are some more printable graphics. I think this modification of the NFL's Patriots logo is genius.

I understand these images might not reflect the opinions of all our readers, but let's keep comments limited to the graphic design and not the politics of the site. There are other forums for war vs. anti-war debates.

Translation: even though this is, so far, a highly political post & subsequent thread, pretend it isn't. My, what pretty pictures...

Right, Dave! You've got it.

It's a shame that the folks over at Underground Advertising, who sponsored Protest Posters didn't step up to the bat nearly as well as Glasser et al did.

Hey, what about making posters showing the Iraqi people suffering and dying under a dictatorship? Hmmmmmm.

I got nothing against that, Amanda. Let's do it. (Don't forget to mention sanctions among the reasons they are suffering.) And do one for N. Korea and Zimbabwe too. Heck, let's clean up the whole world while we're at it. We gots plenty of disposable troops to go around.

I think we should start at the root of the problem: Democracy. Idiots choosing idiots to run superpowers.

hhp

All joking (or not) aside, I really like the idea of using design as powerful tool for change. All I can think of is the Ad Council and AdBusters. Who else is using design for change?

I mean on a nonprofit -501 (c)3 basis. Is AdBusters a NPO? I'm assuming they are.

The posters are really great visually, but a few of them set my propaganda alarm off. The next “Love” poster these are not, although the “Poop them out” poster is pretty damned clever.

Cute, I should say.

BTW, you're not allowed to embed Emigre fonts in PDF. Or maybe they got written permission?

hhp

EMBEDDED EMIGRE FONTS!!?!?!? Lawsuit right away. Better yet, bomb that person's house. I mean, these are embedded fonts God's sake.

or should I say, FOR God's sake.

Or, to be really inclusive "for Gods' sakes."

Yummy propaganda. Shallow, but that's the best kind of propaganda.

You can't embed emigre fonts? Well, another foundry scratched off my list...

BTW...what *is* the logic behind foundries not wanting you to embed fonts into PDFs? I truly do not get it.

Screw Emigre.

I buy a font, then use it to produce end-product. If I then choose to make my end-product available to folks (free or otherwise), it's none of their damn business.

They are worried, I assume, that enterprising individuals will figure out a way to somehow extract the fonts from the PDF. Is that even possible? I've heard of this concern but never met anyone actually able to do it.

*ack*

Fear is seldom excuse (often a reason, but seldom an excuse).

A Mr. Allen Bo designed this little piece,
which i think that Amanda and everyone else
here will enjoy.

support our soldiers

for the record, i dont condone the killing of anyone,
innocent or otherwise ... good design is good design.

> Is that even possible?

Yes, but it doesn't always work (unless you're a Postscript guru). Plus you rarely get all the characters.

I don't blame Emigre for wanting to protect their fonts, but I think the customers (and exposure) they lose from that restriction probably outweighs any resultant piracy. Anybody who can hack a font out of a PDF won't have much trouble finding the font elsewhere anyway. And Flash is harder to hack.

Note that most font houses have just as much to lose from piracy, but most of them provide PDFs - including Adobe!

I think there's an ideological -as opposed to pragmatic- factor at play chez Emigre.

hhp

You can embed Emigre fonts, but you need to purchase a PDF embedding license to do so. The price is reasonable for the risk involved.

What about the people suffering and dying under our own little dictatorship here in the US of A, Amanda? There's pain and suffering everywhere -- we don't need to cause more to satisfy a political agenda.

With ya on the power of graphic design for change, though.

Oh - thanks for the correction. Although I wonder how many people [would] actually pay. What about Flash?

--

Giles, try getting that aired on CNN...

hhp

Giles! Give me one example of people dying under a U.S. "dictatorship." Do you mean abortion? The ridiculous drug wars? If so, I'm with you! Humpf! You're such a, a, a liberal!

Love, Your Better Half.

Please don't be naive. Central and South America are replete with examples of US-funded governments kidnapping, torturing and murdering their own citizens. Various American states have used eugenics to cull citizens not considered genetically pure, and at least one of these programs involved the deaths of quite a number of people due to 'experimentation.' The US government has killed many thousands of others OF ITS OWN CITIZENS, ON ITS OWN SOIL in medical and quasi-medical experimentation, often without the knowledge of the victim. It's not about liberalism or conservativism or any kind of relativism. It's simply that whoever has the power defines the rules that the game is played by. And don't even get me started on Indians. Do you consider them Americans even? Or were they a hostile force that it was completely acceptable to almost completely wipe out? Christ. I need some fucking coffee.

Yes, the Palestinians should be ecstatic they're not Native Americans.

--

BTW, the next USArmy ad campaign:
"We kill more people by 8AM than most countries do in a year."

hhp

JLT - I would like to read something that supports your theory that the US supplied funds to Central and South American countries to aid in kidnapping, torture, and murder. That's just crazy.

Also, when were the Native Americans almost completely wiped out? Was it last week, or was it not even in your great-great...

...great grandparents lifetime?

It's irrelevant.

EP, you are inhuman and dumb.

hhp

BTW, the next USArmy ad campaign:
“We kill more people by 8AM than most countries do in a year.”

Hrant

You are way off with this.* I just had a very long and eye-opening conversation this morning with a former U.S. "operative."

* by a couple of hours

Here are some links. The reportage at the first few is certainly ideologically slanted, but I think they can at least give you a general idea of what's gone on. I am surprised you didn't learn about this in grade school; it was part of the curriculum where I grew up. Certainly the activities at the U.S. Army School of the Americas campuses in Panama and Ft. Benning, Georgia, which trained torturers (just one of many intriguing courses, I am sure), were funded wholly by the US Government - this has never been contested. A House inquiry, which eventually instigated the succesful campaign to close the SOA, concluded that "seven training manuals were released by the Department of Defense revealing tactics put forward by instructors at the School of the Americas.  These manuals advocated executions, false imprisonment, blackmail, physical abuse, and other forms of torture. The manuals confirmed that the School had been teaching Latin American soldiers to commit human rights abuses."

Link 1

Link 2

Some of the human rights abuses in Bolivia have been just horrific. The Nicaraguan people have also suffered, and that suffering has also been paid with US tax dollars. Human Rights Watch is an excellent source for various chronologies of recent central American politics, some of which are clearly illustrative of the changes that American funding directly caused in those countries.

The mass killings in Guatemala were also at least partially funded by the United States, as the United Nations' Historical Clarification Commission found after a long investigation in 1999.

Link 3

El Salvador, however, is probably one of the best (or worst) examples, as very little was done to hide the paper trail that eventually emerged once the Senate Oversight committee finally investigated reports of US-funded, -led and -trained human rights abuses throughout the 1980s. Approximately 70,000 Salvadorans, most of them poor rural noncombatants, were killed - not by guns and bullets bought with American dollars, but by guns and bullets GIVEN by the US. In fact, The Senate investigation actually showed that American intelligence "advisors" were even present during many of the actions that took these peoples' lives. I hate to use a link from a political true believer on either side - people like Moore find it too hard to question the foundations of their own leftist beliefs - but this is a good resource:

Link 4

Philip Agee's declassified memoirs, published after he resigned from the CIA in 1964, is a good read as well.

Link 5

Link 6

Giraldo's excellent Colombia: The Genocidal Democracy is a great source, among a hundred others.

I wouldn't trust Parenti too much either - too much of a true believer, again - but he did an excellent and I think fair essay on US business interests being pushed by the CIA and SOA staff in the mid-90s, and I can dig that out if you like. I have 25 or 30 books on the subject of American funding of civilian killings in south and central America, both in English and Spanish, so if I can mail you any, feel free to ask, I'd be happy to. There are literally hundreds of great resources available in your public library, however I'd say that the US' own various house and senate investigations, as well as the UN's several dozen in the last 20 years, offer some of the best and most reliable data.

Your friend,

Joshua

> Is that even possible?

Even if it is, who cares? If I wanted to pirate a font, I'd just jump online and find a copy of the actual font.

> The price is reasonable for the risk involved.

Looks like a bait-and-switch scam. $150 a year in perpetuity to make a PDF with their fonts? Yeesh.

> Give me one example of people dying under a U.S. “dictatorship.

Most of the native american population. A disproportionate number of blacks on death row. Thousands of panamanian citizens. Many columbians. Sweatshop workers in southeast Asia. The poor without health care. The addicted without drug treatments. Those poisoned through corporate 'look the other way'-ing. Those killed on the highways (due to reduced safety standards by lobbyists).

All governments are evil. Some just have better PR departments.

> It’s irrelevant.

WHAT!? Are you SERIOUS!? What the U.S. did to the native americans is incredibly relevant. The fact that people say it isn't relevant is one of the greatest travesties of our society. Do you know anything of our history prior to Columbus 'discovering' this land (and subsequently murdering, raping and enslaving the native population?)

You LEARN from the past. The past is ALWYAS relevant.

> I am surprised you didn’t learn about this in grade school

Actually, don't be surprised. We teach a very slanted history to most children. I grew up learning little of native american society. Little-to-nothing of the slavery issues and reconstruction. Nothing of vietnam.

Very few people have a full understanding of US history (myself included).

Yummy. Fonts and politics!

Regarding the S.O.S. poster (see few comments back):

Of course we should support our soldiers...
by getting them back a.s.a.p.

design is politics. art is history. everything is constructed. you just can't get far enough away to see it without the construction; all you can do is try to infer the boundaries of the framework by looking at who made them and why. i'm suddenly feeling a lot like jean baudrillard.

HRANT - I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. You just assumed I meant this or that and pulled out your grade school put down arsenal.

I am truly interested in history, that's why I asked for supporting documentation from JLT. And I got it, now I have a weekends worth of reading.

irrelevant: having no bearing on or connection with the subject at issue

Thank you dictionary. Native Americans have nothing to do with our situation now with IRAQ. If they do, let me know.

This is why I shouldn't post anything, because people can't interpret. Then they call me inhuman and dumb.

Congratulations on ruining the typographica forum for me - and most likely for many other people who come here for typographical discussion and information. Keep your politics to yourselves. I don't care what your politics are. I don't/didn't come hear to have propaganda in any shape or form shoved in my face, and I most likely will be staying away for the foreseeable future. Sure, I could just ignore this particular discussion and move on, but that would essentially mean the flamers could chirp in with their bilge at any time and hijack any discussion. For what it's worth, I suggest this thread be expunged from the record and there be a moratorium here on inflammatory subjects like politics or religion. People who want to flame each other on those subjects should go to forums devoted to those contentious issues.

> Native Americans have nothing to do with our situation now with IRAQ.

I don't agree. Philosophically, I can say that everything has to do with everything. But practically, I think the American refusal to regret what happened to the American Indians leads directly to the sort of juvenile, reckless arrogance that's endangering not just innocent inhabitants of the Fertile Crescent, but in fact the entire world.

hhp

JFP, you rule! Good links. By the way:

They are worried, I assume, that enterprising individuals will figure out a way to somehow extract the fonts from the PDF. Is that even possible? I?ve heard of this concern but never met anyone actually able to do it.

I'll admit: I've done it once or twice on PDFs with not-for-sale fonts so I could study and learn from their designs. I'd never use the fonts for a job, of course!! It is quite difficult to do, though, like you said.

Paul

I don't understand how anyone can work, succesfully or rewardingly, as a designer - an interpreter and producer of culture - without being an active participant in that culture. I am sorry that Martin feels uncomfortable with political discussion here, but I learned about art and design in a very political environment and have practiced my craft in a very political environment. I have always felt that there is really no way or need to separate the two fields, and I doubt that is a minority opinion.

In my own experience and opinion, if one is uninterested in politics, justice and the elevation of the human spirit, then an individual should just find a job where you don't need to interact with other people or the culture itself. Certainly being a graphic artist could not be a rewarding field for such a person.

The word "responsible" means "having the ability to respond." All of us, who produce packaging, signage, books, magazines, billboards and business cards, are responsible because we, in many ways, have much more of an ability to respond to the injustice and pain in the world than many other people. The rich give money; we give work. Why else would we do what we do, if not to at least try to improve the world? I'd rather be dead than not be trying to make the world - at least the corner of it that I live in - better.

> there is really no way or need to separate the two fields

Way, no. Need, as a coping mechanism, sadly way too often. That's in fact the root of the problem: saying "I'll just ignore it".

hhp

“I’ll just ignore it”

Exactly. It's too damn easy to ignore the effects of war when it's far-off Iraqi children being burned to death, mutilated by cluster bombs, and poisoned by uranium shells, and not your own children. Moral expedience at its worst.

Paul

> It’s too damn easy ....

And exactly why doesn't the media cover that?

hhp

What we need is this, my friends.

hhp

Well, since you all now seem to think this discussion is warranted...

I find it baffling that grown men and women actually believe that Bush is advancing a war agenda for personal reasons... either as revenge for his father's stalemate or for some oil-related reason. I bet most people here don't even know that most oil sold in th e US doesn't even come from the Middle East... it's cheaper for us to buy it from Canada, Venezuela, Mexico and the North Sea. Less distance to travel = less cost. Iraqi oil would be of negligible benefit to the US. Now France, on the other hand...

I also don't understand what the point of the UN is anymore. It passes resolutions that ultimately have no force behind them, so they mean nothing. Iraq has flouted 1441 for twelve years now, and the US and Britain are the only countries with the will to follow through on it. If it means nothing, then the UN means nothing.

I also don't understand how it's wrong for us to be in Iraq, but it was necessary for us to have been in Kosovo. Apparently modern leftists place more value on the life of a Bosnian than the life of a Kurd. Was it because Clinton was in charge instead of Bush? Hell, Clinton didn't even wait for UN permission when he blew up that pharmaceutical plant in the Sudan. He was given a free pass cos his heart was in the right place. Or something.

Graphics and politics mix all the time. Today on the verge of war, many of us are trying to use whatever graphic skills we have to support one side or the other on this issue.

Here in Minnesota, there is currently a battle of lawn signs. At last count, nearly 15,000 "Say No To War: Call Your Congressperson" signs have been sold. A competing sign, "Liberate Iraq: Support Our Troops" has now sold about 10,000. Veterans for Peace countered with a new sign, "Support Our Troops: Bring Them Home." that has already sold 5,000. Sorry I don't have the images.

What I find interesting about these times is that there is a rather intelligent and far-reaching discussion going on in the world right now. Neither side is as simplistic or ignorant as the rhetoric would imply. I find it fascinating.

In addition, the proliferation of hand-made signs at both anti- and pro-war events is probably the largest example of grassroots graphic production outside of professional sports and electoral politics. I'm learning quite a bit from this.

The greatest threat to the legitimacy of the UN is the US.
The greatest threat to the well-being of the world is the US.

BTW: Clinton, Bush, same shit.
Although blaming puppets for anything is misleading.

> there is a rather intelligent and far-reaching discussion going on in the world right now.

Yes, but almost none of it is happening this side of the Atlantic. Intelligence will in fact cause Blair to lose his job. But lack of it will cause Bush to become a hero, although only like Jengis Khan was to his people.

hhp

John B., let me first make it clear that I have a lot of respect for you in the typography community.

I also don?t understand what the point of the UN is anymore. It passes resolutions that ultimately have no force behind them, so they mean nothing.

That the UN doesn't accede to every demand the US makes doesn't make it irrelevant. That the US gave it fraudulent documents about uranium and false information about supposed chemical weapons sites sure doesn't make the UN's job any easier.

I didn't hear anyone complaining when the US vetoed 50 resolutions against Israel. So why, when the UN wants to continue inspections that have stymied any potential WMD program in Iraq, is the US's stonewalling considered a failure of the UN?

Perhaps the fact that almost all the other 204 member nations of the UN don't see Iraq as a threat is significant.

Paul

> I find it baffling that grown men and women actually believe that Bush is advancing a war agenda for personal reasons?

Unfortunately, it's not baffling at all to see a grown man deny that his country is run by provincial brutes, murderers and thieves. It's a classic coping mechanism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2851723.stm

"Seven years or so ago, he saw a letter addressed to ex-President Clinton by a group of politicians advising him to attack Iraq, occupy the country and operate the oilfields.

Those who signed the letter are now in power - including Vice-President Richard Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, his deputy Paul Wolfowitz and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage."

This is nothing more than a murderous Crusade for more money. Face it.

Oh, and make sure you don't travel too much with that US passport. Soon I'll have my renewed Lebanese passport - it will be much safer to use.

hhp

> I have a lot of respect for you in the typography community.

Hey, off topic! ;-)
Actually, me too.

> I didn?t hear anyone complaining when the US vetoed 50 resolutions against Israel.

Yeah, I wonder why the media never says anything about that...

Just rename your french fries "Freedom Fries", and surely the world will come to respect you.

This is how your money is being spent. Although to be fair, much more of it goes to killing people for more money, so I guess it's a sound investment, eh?
(The second table.)

hhp

The US and Britain have been doing the UN's work forever now. It's our planes over Iraq enforcing the UN-mandated no-fly-zone. It is our men being shot at and put at risk. I do not see France or Germany stepping forward. They want all the trappings of power and none of the responsibilities.

And they're in the minority in Europe. A few weeks ago, a majority of European countries signed a joint statement supporting the US position on Iraq. France and Germany were absent, plus two others... I believe they were Belgium and Luxembourg. France then proceeded to threaten to block some of the Eastern European countries' future participation in the EU. (And more power to those countries if they say no on their own... Denmark had the right idea.)

And I certainly find the idea that high oil prices are in the US' interest rather ludicrous. OPEC is pure collusion, and that just means more money for OPEC and less for the US. And the US is right to seek independence from foreign oil. Oil is a weapon, and it's being used against us. (If it weren't, do you think we'd keep taking it up the ass from the Saudis?)

Hrant, your arguments amount to nothing more than "Americans are dumb," "Bush is dumb," "You better watch your back travelling abroad," "Americans are simpleminded religious zealots," "Bush is a childish fratboy." It's all name-calling. Is that the best you can do?

You've lived here in the US subsidized by our government for God knows how many years now, and you spend your every waking hour online trashing everything and everyone you come in contact with, from type designers to the average American. You're even advocating absolute monarchy--how pathetic is that?! Hrantocracy?

What a wasted life.

Maybe they do things better in Kerblockistan and he came here as a missionary to show us how an enlightened S.S.R. does things.

I've lived in four countries (although two for a limited period), each of a different nature. And I pay my taxes here - so I'm not sure who's taking advantage of whom... I've lived here long enough to know what makes you tick: material posession. God is not your god. Your god is money. God is only an excuse. And if He gets in the way, you can be sure he'll get screwed.

You're angry because most of the world hates you. Not because you're dumb (you're not), but because you're irresponsible.

hhp

> missionary

No, I was young. And it's certainly a great place to be a college kid. But then you feel screwed. Assuming you've traveled enough to know what's really out there. Don't worry, when the timing is right, I'm outta here. But to be frank one thing stopping me is that you keep bombing everywhere else!

Anyway, this isn't about me. Forget me.
But don't forget Humanity.

hhp

"It’s our planes over Iraq enforcing the UN-mandated no-fly-zone."

Actually, the no-fly-zones are entirely a creation of the U.S. and Britain and are definitely not the work of the United Nations.

"It is our men being shot at and put at risk."

Exactly! That's why there had better be a damn good reason before I support sending these people into harm's way. These are my relatives you're talking about.

Some are convinced the cause is worth it. I and a whole lot of other people are not convinced. Neither of us is anti-American.

Hrant suggested that intelligent discussion isn't happening on this side of the Atlantic. He's right that it's not happening in the mainstream media.

But I've found that not to be true outside of the mediaverse. I've had many discussions with people who are on several sides of this issue and from all walks of life. I've learned a lot from them.

Here's another site with copyright-free graphics:

http://www.waketheworld.org/

John, you've been listening to US media, and that has impaired your judgment. The information you've been getting is designed to reduce dissent.

hhp

Actually, the no-fly-zones are entirely a creation of the U.S. and Britain and are definitely not the work of the United Nations.

Not to mention that the US allows Turkish warplanes to bomb Kurdish villages in the northern no-fly zone. This was recently confirmed by British pilots in the British media. (naturally, the US media would take no notice)

Paul

Da! The government sent a directive to their political operatives working in the New York Times newsroom and instructed them to write news articles that would stifle the hopes and dreams of the Budweiser-sodden proletarian stooges. But fortunately you're here to expose this yellow capitalist plot.

The Kurds are a weird case in the Middle East. Arabs hate them almost as much as they do Jews, and will do anything to crush their aspirations for a homeland. Your typical Arab didn't blink an eye when Hussein gassed them.

Anything having to do with supporting Kurds is a deal-killer with the Turks, and right now the Turks are one the US's strongest allies in the region. No one really cares about the Kurds -- certainly not the Arabs. Not the white upper-middle-class peaceniks here in the States. Not the U.S. government except that the Kurds are in a position to help is right now.

Again Mr. Butler, with all due respect and no personal affront to you:

It is our men being shot at and put at risk.

Dropping 5000-pound bombs from 30,000 feet onto civilian targets and launching cruise missiles from the sea does not constitute "putting one's men at risk". It does constitute a war crime.

What a wasted life.

Stooping to personal attacks does a great disservice to your own position.

Paul

I agree with Paul that we should keep personal attacks out of this. People are getting emotional, which is good. But keep it courteous.

On that note, Paul, you're being silly. War isn't a game. There is no "fair" -- there's either smart and alive or dumb and dead. No smart warrior refuses any tactic or weapon because it isn't "fair". And if S.H. launches anthrax-laced missiles at U.S. troops or nearby population centers, wouldn't that put GIs at risk?

Anyway, that whole argument is a distraction. The odds of S.H. winning has no bearing (in my opinion) on the morality of this war.

Your typical Arab didn't blink an eye when Hussein gassed them.

You refer no doubt to the infamous "Halabja" gassing that Bush and company like referring to. The fact that is usually overlooked is that Iran was responsible. Yes, that was the official position of the CIA and the State Dept. after investigating the affair on-site. The kurds were gassed with cyanide, which only the Iranians were using.

Link 1

Link 2

Bush knows this, but he prefers to distort the truth since fear and hatred can incite support for war more than truth ever could.

Anyway, were you implying that the Arabs' dislike of the Kurds makes it okay for us to kill them too? Life sure is cheap over there, eh? Nice to see we're fitting in.

On that note, Paul, you're being silly. War isn?t a game. There is no "fair" -- there's either smart and alive or dumb and dead. No smart warrior refuses any tactic or weapon because it isn't "fair".

Then why do we try people for war crimes? Why have law at all? Just call it war and let anyone do whatever the hell they want to anyone else.

"Arabs hate them almost as much as they do Jews,..."

Along with avoiding personal attacks, please refrain from racist attacks as well.

I've met too many Arabs who argue vehemently amongst themselves about just about everything to truly believe they agree on anything, including hating the Jews, Kurds or people who think Comic Sans is the greatest typeface ever.

Paul, I am against the war.

This source claims that it was a mixture of mustard gas, VX, and a few other nasty bugs.

Kristin, I know here in the Land O' White Liberal Guilt, white people aren't allowed to criticize other cultures, but doing so doesn't make one racist. It's true that every individual of every culture is different, but when certain patterns become evident, it's no shame to point them out.

> The government sent a directive

No need. The government is controlled by the people who own the media anyway! It's not a conspiracy - it's just "good business"...

> Arabs hate [Kurds]

This is not true. I lived there. Arabs are one of the kindest people in the world. Their current rage is partly a result of their faith in fairness. Just like Americans, BTW! The difference is that Americans are drunk with power (and they're too young to be drinking so much). They've let materialism overpower their sense of fairness. And most of all, they don't realize how corrupt their leaders are - and denial is both the most dangerous catalyst and the hardest thing to overcome. Italians for example also have a horrid goverment - but the fact that they realize it means they're closer to a better future, some day.

> Why have law at all?

To make the rich richer.

hhp

> Land O’ White Liberal Guilt

I agree that there's a difference between active racism and making observations, but concerning the guilt scapegoating, I'd offer a trade: what do you say you get to be usurped and massacred by the other side (past and present) instead, but they get not to criticize you? Fair? :-/

Criticize as much as you want - just stop killing and stealing.

hhp

Wait, I get to be the Kurd and you the Arab? That might teach me something, but what will it teach you?

John, I don't know you are white. You don't know whether I am white. So why assume this has anything to do with white liberal guilt?

Our culture portrays Arabs as hating Jews and vice versa. It's an unfortunate biproduct of our lousy education in history.

Arabs and Jews have lived together in peace for hundreds of years. A huge part of this was because of our joint victimization during the Crusades. Many of us have never forgotten this, despite the current situation in a certain small area of the Middle East.

Kristin --

I don't know you're white, but I do know you're Minnesotan. Part of growing up here is to think that other people can criticize us but not vice versa. A related aspect is to belittle our ourselves. How dare we criticize another culture? Put up the Kwanzaa candles and celebrate Chinese New Year!

But you and I know it's an insidious, deceitful thing, this guilt. It's not permitted to voice a distaste for other cultures, but it's permitted to put 60 miles of highway between you and the nearest black person.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone (damn, I'm being Minnesotan again!) but I think it's good and important that we get this out in the open. Best wishes to all of you.

> I get to be the Kurd and you the Arab?

No, no, you get to be American Indian, and I get to be the Manifest Destiny people. You will learn what it means to lose most of your family and land, live on the little bit of land enough to hold you as a de facto prisoner (making sure you don't tell your story to too many people), and have 80% unemployment. But I will allow you to call me names. Deal?

As for the Kurds:
1) They helped massacre the Armenians and drive them out of their ancestral lands. But to be fair they were just being used by the Turks.
2) Many more Kurds have been victimized by the Turks (who are not Arab). But of course you hear that a lot less in the US. Axis of Evil countries have to stick together.

hhp

n.b.

"John B." and I are two different people. I wish he would just go ahead and spell out his last name. Ahem.

Hrant, that's a silly argument. It's not like invasions, genocide and so forth were an invention of the Pilgrims. They existed on both sides of the Atlantic for millennia. And the past misdeeds of the Founding Fathers have nothing to do with the price of butter nor do they relate to the morality (or lack thereof) of attacking Iraq.

John B(utler): Sorry holmes.

> People are getting emotional

You'd think I should (considering I have three aunts and their families living in Baghdaad), but I'm not. Any political subjectivity has already been bombed and shot out of me.

I know what war is like, and I know many of the reasons it happens. This one can be stopped if the American people only had the courage to open their eyes. A courage they used to have, which is one reason that until recently most of the world -including Arabs- admired them.

hhp

> They existed on both sides of the Atlantic for millennia.

Sure, I'm not saying Americans should go to hell for it, not at all. But what I am saying is that until Americans regret having done it, they will keep doing it to other people. History doesn't proceed in chapters.

hhp

"I don’t know you’re white, but I do know you’re Minnesotan. Part of growing up ...."

John (not Butler), John (not Butler), John (not Butler).

::sigh::

If the fact I live in Minnesota *now* allows you to leap to the conclusion that :

a. I grew up here

b. I was subject to an enormous amount of whites, liberals and guilt

Then:

I have a much better understanding of how you draw conclusions from facts not in evidence.

So as to not be completely off-topic, here is yet another site with a collection of anti-war posters of various quality (mostly not so good):

http://www.postersagainstwar.org/posters1.htm

OT OT OT

no, not spacing pairs...Off-Topic.

There are plenty of other places to do this. Comments are closed on this one.

Another Poster for Peace is back up after being temporarily disabled by their web host due to unexpected heavy traffic. (See updates on this article.)