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	<title>Comments on: Mac OS X Fonts List</title>
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	<link>http://typographica.org/2005/on-typography/mac-os-x-fonts-list/</link>
	<description>A journal of typography with a focus on typeface reviews.</description>
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		<title>By: John Scuderi</title>
		<link>http://typographica.org/2005/on-typography/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36570</link>
		<dc:creator>John Scuderi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://new.typographica.org/archives/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36570</guid>
		<description>I may have missed an important difficulty in what I&#039;m about to suggest, but why can&#039;t fonts have a licensing code embedded, allowing full use with a licensed computer, and two or three uses in a commercial printer&#039;s computer, but only in concert with a user-licensed program file? Apparently this is done with music and similarly with other software.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may have missed an important difficulty in what I&#8217;m about to suggest, but why can&#8217;t fonts have a licensing code embedded, allowing full use with a licensed computer, and two or three uses in a commercial printer&#8217;s computer, but only in concert with a user-licensed program file? Apparently this is done with music and similarly with other software.</p>
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		<title>By: Claudio Piccinini</title>
		<link>http://typographica.org/2005/on-typography/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36569</link>
		<dc:creator>Claudio Piccinini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://new.typographica.org/archives/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36569</guid>
		<description>Since the issue&#039;s been raised, are you familiar with this:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://creativecommons.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://creativecommons.org/&lt;/a&gt;
I&#039;ve not had the opportunity to read the basics, but it seems very interesting ground. To me it&#039;s been clear for a long time now, the digital flux of information needs new rules of commerce, appropriation, reworking, sharing, re-appropriation.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since the issue&#8217;s been raised, are you familiar with this:<br />
<a href="http://creativecommons.org/" rel="nofollow">http://creativecommons.org/</a><br />
I&#8217;ve not had the opportunity to read the basics, but it seems very interesting ground. To me it&#8217;s been clear for a long time now, the digital flux of information needs new rules of commerce, appropriation, reworking, sharing, re-appropriation.</p>
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		<title>By: Miss Tiffany</title>
		<link>http://typographica.org/2005/on-typography/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36568</link>
		<dc:creator>Miss Tiffany</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Sep 2005 03:14:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://new.typographica.org/archives/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36568</guid>
		<description>Chester said: &lt;em&gt;There are two ways to approach this issue: prescriptive or descriptive. One can either set down the rules and try to enforce them (prescriptive), or one can observe the reality on the ground and adapt accordingly (descriptive)&lt;/em&gt;

Bravo! Can I steal that?

RE: CS and Font Bundling.

First, I think we need to decide who we are talking about when we say thing such as &quot;user&quot; and &quot;everyone&quot;. This is a typography blog and as such attracts designers.

Second, I happen to appreciate the fonts that are bundled with CS2 and have a better way of looking at it. (Granted, the fact that I now have a license for Garamond Premier Pro is wonderful. But, that and all the other fonts don&#039;t cover my needs.) Thanks to that bundling, I can now use my money to license the type I want and not the type I need. Any designer who knows the power of the correctly chosen typeface will &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; rely solely on what is bundled. If anything, I should thing small foundries should applaud the bundling. Perhaps my viewpoint is warped. But I seriously think any designer who calls the font library complete after licensing CS2 needs to re-think and re-consider.

Designer, if you are reading, your ideas intrigue me. Do you have any more?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chester said: <em>There are two ways to approach this issue: prescriptive or descriptive. One can either set down the rules and try to enforce them (prescriptive), or one can observe the reality on the ground and adapt accordingly (descriptive)</em></p>
<p>Bravo! Can I steal that?</p>
<p>RE: CS and Font Bundling.</p>
<p>First, I think we need to decide who we are talking about when we say thing such as &#8220;user&#8221; and &#8220;everyone&#8221;. This is a typography blog and as such attracts designers.</p>
<p>Second, I happen to appreciate the fonts that are bundled with CS2 and have a better way of looking at it. (Granted, the fact that I now have a license for Garamond Premier Pro is wonderful. But, that and all the other fonts don&#8217;t cover my needs.) Thanks to that bundling, I can now use my money to license the type I want and not the type I need. Any designer who knows the power of the correctly chosen typeface will <em>not</em> rely solely on what is bundled. If anything, I should thing small foundries should applaud the bundling. Perhaps my viewpoint is warped. But I seriously think any designer who calls the font library complete after licensing CS2 needs to re-think and re-consider.</p>
<p>Designer, if you are reading, your ideas intrigue me. Do you have any more?</p>
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		<title>By: Bobby Henderson</title>
		<link>http://typographica.org/2005/on-typography/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36567</link>
		<dc:creator>Bobby Henderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://new.typographica.org/archives/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36567</guid>
		<description>I guess I&#039;m not very optimistic that lots of people will start buying more type even if their computers are limited to only a handful of fonts. Most people don&#039;t even use many of the fonts bundled in their computer systems.

Consider this problem. Just about any sign company is going to have at least 1000 fonts in their sign design software, or even just with Corel and a vinyl cutting bridge program. Even with those resources available, I mainly see Arial Bold all over the place and distorted to oblivion. It&#039;s the first san-serif face they see in their font list and they just slap it up there.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I&#8217;m not very optimistic that lots of people will start buying more type even if their computers are limited to only a handful of fonts. Most people don&#8217;t even use many of the fonts bundled in their computer systems.</p>
<p>Consider this problem. Just about any sign company is going to have at least 1000 fonts in their sign design software, or even just with Corel and a vinyl cutting bridge program. Even with those resources available, I mainly see Arial Bold all over the place and distorted to oblivion. It&#8217;s the first san-serif face they see in their font list and they just slap it up there.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Coles</title>
		<link>http://typographica.org/2005/on-typography/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36566</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Coles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://new.typographica.org/archives/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36566</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Designer &#8211; I agree with many of your points. I think most software makers&#8217; estimates of revenue &#8220;lost&#8221; is ludicrous. You cannot count every copied file and call it a lost sale.</p>
<p>But I had a chuckle when I read both &#8220;let’s recognize the realities of the digital age and adapt&#8221; and &#8220;EULAs are not valid in most legal jurisdictions. They violate the <em>very old</em> legal principle of “first sale&#8221;. Very old indeed. I&#8217;m sure you can admit the digital age has created new goods and services which cannot be sold under the same rules as physical goods.</p>
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		<title>By: Designer</title>
		<link>http://typographica.org/2005/on-typography/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36565</link>
		<dc:creator>Designer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2005 09:17:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://new.typographica.org/archives/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36565</guid>
		<description>Nick, let me preface by saying that I strongly admire your design skills and contributions to type design.

You wrote: &quot;There is no value that can be added to a font which will make it more attractive to petty thieves who can get it for free with zero chance of being caught or punished.&quot;

I strongly disagree. I can think of several advantages off the bat, and a clever entrepreneur will surely find more.

1. Access: finding specific bootlegged fonts is hard. I have no idea how I&#039;d find a particular font if I needed one. Purchasing a font for $50 from the designer is easily more valuable than spending an hour of my billable time looking for a &quot;free&quot; font.

2. Service: font designers can add special format conversion, tweaks, and other customizations to their customers. It&#039;s up to them to capitalize on this, or the free market will pick up the slack (as it has overseas).

3. Upgrades: font designers can offer future improvements and expanded character sets for free or a discount to paying customers; something that, again, would take valuable time to find, and perhaps be impossible to find fore free.

4. Guaranteed quality: if you purchase your font from a respectable vendor, you can be certain that it retains the curves and metrics the designer intended for it. You can&#039;t be certain of the quality of free fonts.

5. Client billing: If I purchase fonts and use them for a design project, I can bill them to my client and add my usual 10% surcharge. Extra profit for me!

6. There are also alternate business models to simply trading fonts for cash.

I also strongly object to making the strenuous accusation of &quot;thief&quot; against anyone who takes part in sharing or copying that you disagree with. The right to share and communicate (as opposed to stealing, which actually deprives a person of property by fraud or force) is a basic facet of humanity. For a good essay on the subject, see: &lt;a href=&quot;http://tinyurl.com/9glzg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://tinyurl.com/9glzg&lt;/a&gt;

Consider the iTunes music store. People didn&#039;t think you could compete against free music file-sharing, but Steve Jobs did - and he did it by considering file-sharing to be competition, and figuring out how to offer a superior product. He didn&#039;t do it by belligerently accusing his potential clientele of thievery and murder on the high seas every chance he got it. And guess what? He succeeded.

I&#039;ll finish with notable quotes by the venerable Mark Twain and Robert Heinlein, on the subject of information and copying.

&quot;Only one thing is impossible for God: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet. Whenever a copyright law is to be made or altered, then the idiots assemble.&quot; -Twain

&quot;When any government ... undertakes to say to its subjects, this you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motive.&quot; -Heinlein

Please folks, let&#039;s recognize the realities of the digital age and adapt.

[PS: End User License Agreements are not valid in most legal jurisdictions. They violate the very old legal principle of &quot;first sale&quot;, that the obligations of a buyer and seller end once the exchange is concluded. Calling the sale by a different word doesn&#039;t change that fact.]
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick, let me preface by saying that I strongly admire your design skills and contributions to type design.</p>
<p>You wrote: &#8220;There is no value that can be added to a font which will make it more attractive to petty thieves who can get it for free with zero chance of being caught or punished.&#8221;</p>
<p>I strongly disagree. I can think of several advantages off the bat, and a clever entrepreneur will surely find more.</p>
<p>1. Access: finding specific bootlegged fonts is hard. I have no idea how I&#8217;d find a particular font if I needed one. Purchasing a font for $50 from the designer is easily more valuable than spending an hour of my billable time looking for a &#8220;free&#8221; font.</p>
<p>2. Service: font designers can add special format conversion, tweaks, and other customizations to their customers. It&#8217;s up to them to capitalize on this, or the free market will pick up the slack (as it has overseas).</p>
<p>3. Upgrades: font designers can offer future improvements and expanded character sets for free or a discount to paying customers; something that, again, would take valuable time to find, and perhaps be impossible to find fore free.</p>
<p>4. Guaranteed quality: if you purchase your font from a respectable vendor, you can be certain that it retains the curves and metrics the designer intended for it. You can&#8217;t be certain of the quality of free fonts.</p>
<p>5. Client billing: If I purchase fonts and use them for a design project, I can bill them to my client and add my usual 10% surcharge. Extra profit for me!</p>
<p>6. There are also alternate business models to simply trading fonts for cash.</p>
<p>I also strongly object to making the strenuous accusation of &#8220;thief&#8221; against anyone who takes part in sharing or copying that you disagree with. The right to share and communicate (as opposed to stealing, which actually deprives a person of property by fraud or force) is a basic facet of humanity. For a good essay on the subject, see: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/9glzg" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/9glzg</a></p>
<p>Consider the iTunes music store. People didn&#8217;t think you could compete against free music file-sharing, but Steve Jobs did &#8211; and he did it by considering file-sharing to be competition, and figuring out how to offer a superior product. He didn&#8217;t do it by belligerently accusing his potential clientele of thievery and murder on the high seas every chance he got it. And guess what? He succeeded.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll finish with notable quotes by the venerable Mark Twain and Robert Heinlein, on the subject of information and copying.</p>
<p>&#8220;Only one thing is impossible for God: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet. Whenever a copyright law is to be made or altered, then the idiots assemble.&#8221; -Twain</p>
<p>&#8220;When any government &#8230; undertakes to say to its subjects, this you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motive.&#8221; -Heinlein</p>
<p>Please folks, let&#8217;s recognize the realities of the digital age and adapt.</p>
<p>[PS: End User License Agreements are not valid in most legal jurisdictions. They violate the very old legal principle of "first sale", that the obligations of a buyer and seller end once the exchange is concluded. Calling the sale by a different word doesn't change that fact.]</p>
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		<title>By: numan</title>
		<link>http://typographica.org/2005/on-typography/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36564</link>
		<dc:creator>numan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Apr 2005 05:22:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://new.typographica.org/archives/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36564</guid>
		<description>Question?  An obvious alternative to stay within terms of restrictive EULAs is to &quot;outline&quot; all fonts prior to sending to a printer / bureau. But I have seen a few &amp; heard or many instancers of fonts being &quot;thickened&quot; by the convert to outlines proccess. Can anyone definitively answer this issue which I hear debated frequently?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Question?  An obvious alternative to stay within terms of restrictive EULAs is to &#8220;outline&#8221; all fonts prior to sending to a printer / bureau. But I have seen a few &#038; heard or many instancers of fonts being &#8220;thickened&#8221; by the convert to outlines proccess. Can anyone definitively answer this issue which I hear debated frequently?</p>
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		<title>By: nick shinn</title>
		<link>http://typographica.org/2005/on-typography/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36563</link>
		<dc:creator>nick shinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:27:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://new.typographica.org/archives/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36563</guid>
		<description>&quot;Designer&quot;, you have a fundamental ignorance.
Fonts are software, and are licensed, not bought.
Haven&#039;t you ever read a software licensing agreement?
The terms of the agreement (&quot;restrictions&quot; as you put it) are not much different for fonts than for other software such as applications or operating systems.

As a pro, you should understand how the EULAs of different foundries differ. It&#039;s unreasonable to expect that you can enjoy the diversity of type design, and competition between foundries in the area of design, without those foundries also having differing ideas about licensing. That&#039;s what happens in a vibrant culture, in a competitive marketplace. Tiffany Wardle did an excellent &quot;consumer report&quot; on the differences between foundry EULAs. You will find that some foundries, such as my own, do not require service bureaus to licence fonts for outputting jobs.

&gt;Make buying and using your font easier and more satisfying than bootlegging or sharing.

It has never been easier to buy and use fonts, thanks to the internet. There is no value that can be added to a font which will make it more attractive to petty thieves who can get it for free with zero chance of being caught or punished.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Designer&#8221;, you have a fundamental ignorance.<br />
Fonts are software, and are licensed, not bought.<br />
Haven&#8217;t you ever read a software licensing agreement?<br />
The terms of the agreement (&#8220;restrictions&#8221; as you put it) are not much different for fonts than for other software such as applications or operating systems.</p>
<p>As a pro, you should understand how the EULAs of different foundries differ. It&#8217;s unreasonable to expect that you can enjoy the diversity of type design, and competition between foundries in the area of design, without those foundries also having differing ideas about licensing. That&#8217;s what happens in a vibrant culture, in a competitive marketplace. Tiffany Wardle did an excellent &#8220;consumer report&#8221; on the differences between foundry EULAs. You will find that some foundries, such as my own, do not require service bureaus to licence fonts for outputting jobs.</p>
<p>>Make buying and using your font easier and more satisfying than bootlegging or sharing.</p>
<p>It has never been easier to buy and use fonts, thanks to the internet. There is no value that can be added to a font which will make it more attractive to petty thieves who can get it for free with zero chance of being caught or punished.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://typographica.org/2005/on-typography/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36562</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://new.typographica.org/archives/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36562</guid>
		<description>&gt; I think that the carwash that makes money off my car should have to pay for a portion of my car, too.

That point had me struggling, but I think the counter to it is that the same carwash can wash (pretty much) any car, so the parallel breaks down.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>> I think that the carwash that makes money off my car should have to pay for a portion of my car, too.</p>
<p>That point had me struggling, but I think the counter to it is that the same carwash can wash (pretty much) any car, so the parallel breaks down.</p>
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		<title>By: Designer</title>
		<link>http://typographica.org/2005/on-typography/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36561</link>
		<dc:creator>Designer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://new.typographica.org/archives/mac-os-x-fonts-list/#comment-36561</guid>
		<description>Awesome post, Dystopos. Perhaps the auto manufacturers will one day pass laws forbidding us to share our cars or requiring passengers to buy licenses from the company. All in the name of protecting innovation, of course.

The fact is, people own their cars, their toasters, their computers and the data on their computers. It&#039;s not a natural notion to a person that some third party we&#039;ve never met can tell us what to do and what not to do with our own stuff. I&#039;m a designer first, and a typographer second, and when my client gives me a project and sets a deadline, I do what I can to get the project done, buying a font or two if necessary, and then passing all the needed files along to a print bureau. I&#039;m interested in exchanging my services for money and keeping food on the table; I&#039;m not interested in trying to decipher some legalese EULA or in pestering the bureau to buy the font themselves (yeah, right). That&#039;s reality, and I&#039;m doing the font industry a favour by buying new fonts when I could have used something I already have.

As the corpus of fonts owned by a designer grows, there&#039;s less need to buy more. And with the thousands of Latin fonts available already, font designers need to keep adding value - not restrictions or headaches - with their new offerings.

The digital age brings new realities. Type design is far easier and less time consuming than in earlier times. Newly accessible markets demand fonts in new styles and new scripts. Type is used and purchased more widely than ever. However, it&#039;s also possible to obtain type without involving the designer or foundry. Font designers need to compete in the new environment. Make buying and using your font easier and more satisfying than bootlegging or sharing. Offer services with your font that add value. I don&#039;t think enforcing new, abusive rules on print bureaux and designers will help.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome post, Dystopos. Perhaps the auto manufacturers will one day pass laws forbidding us to share our cars or requiring passengers to buy licenses from the company. All in the name of protecting innovation, of course.</p>
<p>The fact is, people own their cars, their toasters, their computers and the data on their computers. It&#8217;s not a natural notion to a person that some third party we&#8217;ve never met can tell us what to do and what not to do with our own stuff. I&#8217;m a designer first, and a typographer second, and when my client gives me a project and sets a deadline, I do what I can to get the project done, buying a font or two if necessary, and then passing all the needed files along to a print bureau. I&#8217;m interested in exchanging my services for money and keeping food on the table; I&#8217;m not interested in trying to decipher some legalese EULA or in pestering the bureau to buy the font themselves (yeah, right). That&#8217;s reality, and I&#8217;m doing the font industry a favour by buying new fonts when I could have used something I already have.</p>
<p>As the corpus of fonts owned by a designer grows, there&#8217;s less need to buy more. And with the thousands of Latin fonts available already, font designers need to keep adding value &#8211; not restrictions or headaches &#8211; with their new offerings.</p>
<p>The digital age brings new realities. Type design is far easier and less time consuming than in earlier times. Newly accessible markets demand fonts in new styles and new scripts. Type is used and purchased more widely than ever. However, it&#8217;s also possible to obtain type without involving the designer or foundry. Font designers need to compete in the new environment. Make buying and using your font easier and more satisfying than bootlegging or sharing. Offer services with your font that add value. I don&#8217;t think enforcing new, abusive rules on print bureaux and designers will help.</p>
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