Scriptuale LT, Linotype Original

Written by Claudio Piccinini on August 18, 2004

Uh, maybe I’m missing something, but what exactly makes a Linotype release an “Original”? It’s clear Univers is, but can someone explain me what Scriptuale represents?


It’s strange: Herbert Post or Post Antiqua are not mentioned anywhere (am I right?) and how can we say a design so related to an existing typeface is a Linotype “Original”?

I hope this is not what it appears to be…

Claudio Piccinini is a graphic and type designer based in Modena, Italy. He has worked for many years as a commercial graphic designer. He always cultivated interest in typeface design and lettering, publishing his first typeface Ottomat in 1996. He is now focusing on type design as his main job and developing typefaces for commercial release.

14 Comments

  1. mGee says:

    huh? Scriptuale and Post Antiqua may be similar fonts, but they are clearly not the same font. Perphaps you’re a little uptight for nothing regarding this.

  2. Mgee, did I say “they were the same font”?
    It’s clear the typeface has been designed, and not an altered version (I would be astonished to see Linotype doing this), but Herbert Post is not even mentioned in the accompanying text, and I just wondered:
    1) What makes a Linotype Original (as I asked in the opening)?
    2) Just because maybe you are unaware you are somewhat “redoing” his work justifies you don’t even bother to do a little research to see from where your source comes? In this case I don’t understand why Linotype mentions Post Antiqua in another Linotype face description, Anasdair

    Anasdair is clearly an original design. I mean, it has strong traits of its own.
    I’m not uptight, I just worry about giving credit where credit is due and calling things with their name, OK?
    Others?

  3. Dan Reynolds says:

    Um, Claudio, what is this about?

    For clarifications sake, here is a good link to Post Antiqua.

    I wrote the description for Post Antiqua that you linked to
    (Here is the link to the whole family again, http://www.linotype.com/56261/scriptualelt-family.html). I think that your criticism is unfounded. Both Post and Renate Weise were influenced by Rudolf Koch (Post more directly, of course, and Koch’s influence is mentioned in the Linotype Scriptuale description). Scriptuale is similar to Post Antiqua in that they are both Offenbach-style calligraphic Romans. An even though there are influences of Post Antiqua in Weise�s work, the two are formally different typefaces.

    Scriptuale has eight different styles (four weights, each with an italic), while Post Antiqua just has two weights, and no italics. If Scriptuale is bastardization, I don�t know where these extra weights and italics came from. In my description, I did not link to Post Antiqua, because it is a Berthold face and isn�t available from Linotype. I did try to include several other relevant links in my description. In general, when I write these things, I try to cover all of the bases�

    Here is a link to Berthold‘s page for Post Antiqua.

    A few weeks ago, Scriptuale was Linotype’s Font of the Week. Fonts of the Week often get special descriptions on our web site. In fact, in that case, the influence of Post was mentioned, so I don�t think that we are trying to bury the Post Antiqua�s influence at all. Again that article mentions that Post Antiqua was designed in 1932, and that it was influenced by Koch. Koch is the real key here.

    I�m sorry that there seems to be confusion. Do you think that the �official� Linotype Scriptuale description should mention Herbert Post and Post Antiqua? As I said, I�m all for covering the bases. But really, I�d like to hear what you find so disturbing about Scriptuale: it is clearly a different typeface; it doesn�t infringe on Herbert Post�s designs.

    Let�s investigate the idea of infringement further: even if Scriptuale were a closer revival, I don�t see what would be so terrible about that. Post Antiqua was designed in 1932. I�m not a lawyer, but I don�t see how copyright laws could come into effect for that. German design patents wouldn�t protect Post against Scriptuale, because Scriptuale is clearly and visually a different face! Besides, German design patents (the only real design patents for typefaces, sadly) last just 25 years. 1932� We didn�t include Post in the name either, so there are no trademark problems. Although, it�s not like we�d have to include Post in the name, as this is a different typeface.

  4. Dan Reynolds says:

    Hi Claudio, I wrote my tomb above before I read your second e-mail. I wrote the description for Anasdair, too (at a different time; can’t remember if it was earlier or later). I put in Post Antiqua there because, as I said before, I was trying to cover all possible bases� I can see Post influences in Anasdair as well.

    A Linotype Original is a font that was designed by Linotype, a Linotype designer, or a designer for a foundry that has been acquired by Linotype� something like that. Linotype also sells fonts that it has licensed from ITC, E+F, URW++, etc. These fonts are not Linotype Originals.

    If I designed a revival of another Post face for Linotype, and gave all of the rights to Linotype, it would be a Linotype Original, too. Original means that it is from Linotype (or in the case of the original Univers, from a foundry that was later bought by Linotype� although the new, expanded Univers was designed by Linotype in house a few years ago� confused yet?).

    Like I said before, no one is trying to deny Post’s influence on contemporary designs� but sometimes it just isn’t practical to list out every influence of every font in every case. I mean, when you design a typeface, how many giants’ shoulders are you standing on?

  5. It’s clear I’m not talking about copyrights.

    Mr. Reynolds, you say “I wrote the description for Post Antiqua that you linked to
    (Here is the link to the whole family again, http://www.linotype.com/56261/scriptualelt-family.html).”
    The description for what?
    Herbert Post is not mentioned.

    I don’t care about “copyrights” at all.
    The only law that stands is written within.
    I could accept such a design only and only out of ignorance of Herbert Post’s work. And since I do not know the designer of Scriptuale I trust she did not know Post.

  6. Dan Reynolds says:

    Call me Dan, I’m just 24.

    I meant that I wrote the description on the Linotype website for Scriptuale that you linked to in your article above. Freudian slip, perhaps!

    In other words, I am the person who did not include mention of Post Antiqua in the Linotype Scriptuale description. Linotype’s designers rarely write their font descriptions themselves.

    I’m glad to hear that you don’t care about copyrights. Unforunately, a lot of people on this forums do (rightfully, in many cases). I wrote such a long reply to your posting because I would like to answer any further criticism in advance, if possible.

  7. “how many giants� shoulders are you standing on?”
    I think one is more than enough, as you give him the respect he deserves.

    Listen Dan, I’m very straight about this: I always quite admired Linotype, for putting out here and there small gems like Johannes Plass’ Auferstehung (of which I’m a registered user) and working closely with promising young german designers.

    When I designed my own Exegetic, I didn’t do it “standing” merely on the shoulders of Post (as the thing is influenced by writing styles of all christianity, up to the middle ages), but some times I had strange feelings when I saw Post Antiqua used around.

    Sometimes I had the impression I took too much from him. Of course, it was an impression. I’m always glad to look at how his influence produced such positive effects on me, and Exegetic, goofy and post-structural as it may be, is made out of all the pieces of my experience (and sufference).

    Don’t think I did this thread for polemic purposes, or for copyright crap. I hate polemic and I hate people behaving like Berthold towards poor Russian designers like my friend Igor Shipovsky for despisable “name” copyright issues.
    I just did it out of my desire to keep Linotype aware and responsive to the light.

    Now I have to go out for dinner. I trust you, anyway.

  8. And Dan, let me be even clearer:
    I would not have a single problem even if Scriptuale was a new, carefully done digitization of Post Antiqua, expanded in a bigger family, if Renate stated she did it out of his profund love and admiration for the work of Herbert Post and Rudolf Koch.

    But just in case the designer is young, or unaware of what he/she’s doing, I think it’s up to you to underline and stress everywhere the design is a close interpretation done out of genuine admiration (at this point the actual quality of the new work as a digital typeface, is no longer relevant, if not for the preservation of Linotype quality standards)

    You say “Linotype�s designers rarely write their font descriptions themselves.”
    Well this is not so good, I fear.

    Now I really have to go…

  9. Dan Reynolds says:

    I’m glad that you trust me; I hope that you enjoy your dinner!

    I took a look at Exegetic over at Thirstype� I really like your number “2”; I’m a big fan of closed-beak two’s (which I call Offenbach Two’s).

    I’m also glad that your Exegetic link on Identifont lists its influences. Too bad that Thirstype doesn’t have descriptions of its fonts on their websites. Maybe that’s because too many designers don’t write descriptions of their fonts. Fonts benefit from them. Maybe we should all take the time to write new descriptions of our fonts, for our customers, and for each other. Then we’ll all be able to get along!

  10. chester says:

    Dan, you read my mind.
    Thirstype.com will soon (ahem) “boast” descriptions of our published fonts. Where possible, the descriptions will be written by the font’s designer – Claudio is a good and studious writer – or by myself – Barry Deck is a little less assiduous…
    Let’s all get along. Amen.
    c

  11. John Butler says:

    Strange, it’s as if there’s something, some inexplicable fear, that makes other foundries hestitate to mention the name Berthold or anything connected to Berthold, even if simply to give props…

    I wonder…

  12. Hrant says:

    Some of it is fear, but some of it is revulsion.
    Sort of like the plague, I guess.

    hhp

  13. David says:

    I guess Linotype Derivatives just doesn’t have the right ring to it.

  14. I took a look at Exegetic over at Thirstype� I really like your number �2�; I�m a big fan of closed-beak two�s (which I call Offenbach Two�s).

    I guess it’s overtly obvious at this point: numerals are my soft spot… :)

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