Now that is a nifty website. Slick looks, fun navigation, and the idea to cull news headlines from the BBC is wikkid. The TypeWriter� is very handy. Tres nice.
�Lisa Knoll, the hardest working woman in font business�
LOL!
Why does a warmed-over clone of Franklin Gothic warrant a blog entry that lauds it? Look at Akkurat!@. Lineto is obviously not the cutting edge foundry it once pretended to be. Why doesn’t typocraphi.ca et al highlight the obvious cloning?
This is NOT a personal atack. It is a serious question about the judgement of the total numbness expressed by verbage such as “Everyone’s favorite Swiss mod foundry” and “trend setting design” (this for a face that is now 101 years old! – trend set that!@).
Judas – Your previous comment was deleted because it was misplaced under the House Industries article. I usually email comment authors if they’ve made such a technical error, but because you insist on posting under a false identity and email address I had no way to contact you.
I find Akkurat more of a combination of Helvetica/AkGrot and gothics such as Franklin than a clone of FG. It is more original than many recent sans releases.
I like the site. I have no critisism of it whatsoever. I apologize if my critisism of the typeface Akkurat is offensive to you. While I believe I have an extremely positive attitude towards progresive and new type design, it is also true that my disposition towards what I see as unoriginal and loosely copied work is negative.
If negative remarks about copied works is a problem, then I would suggest that type design is not for you. The fact is, it comes with the terrritory.
Again, as I said, I love their site, it’s the copied, unoriginal, and lame content that sucks.
If Lineto, their site, their work, their projects and their fonts are NOT fresh and original and tasty and everything else you would wish for as a designer: what is!?
Judas, I must say I was pretty amused by your rant over Akkurat, because I feel you’re quite off the mark.
I tried really hard to see what you meant, but the only (superficial) resemblance to Franklin Gothic I could find has to be its double-story “g”. For the rest Akkurat is a very different face altogether.
First of all, while Franklin Gothic has a distinct classical thick/thin weight distribution which becomes apparent in the bolder weights, Akkurat is a perfectly mono-linear face. This lends Akkurat a very European atmosphere, while Franklin Gothic is unmistakably American.
Furthermore, if you look at the general character traits, you’ll notice a large amount of similarities with those European grotesks, like AG Grotesk/Helvetica/FF Bau’s little tail on the lc ‘a’, the typical lc ‘l’ from AG Schulbuch/FF Schulbuch, the Helvetica uc ‘G’, The Univers-style numerals and so on.
But it gets even more interesting when you start looking beyond those superficial design traits and notice the character skeleton: suddenly you realize the face’s structure is based on the geometric grotesk models, specifically Neuzeit Grotesk. You can see this very clearly in the lc ‘a’ and ‘s’ for example.
So, to conclude it’s safe to say that Akkurat is an interesting new design which plays off its various inspirations to produce a new and original face. To use an analogy from the music scene: Prince was considered an original artist, even though it was obvious he was heavily influenced by Jimmy Hendrix, James Brown and Sly Stone. He didn’t blatantly copy those artists, but assimilated their styles to produce something entirely new and exciting.
Also, if we were to extrapolate your reasoning that Akkurat has no right to exist because you perceive it as being a “copied work”, then one could argue that the same goes for Unica because it looks like Univers which in turn bears a resemblance to Helvetica which in fact is a reworked Akzidenz Grotesk that was based on Schelter & Giesecke’s Grotesk which in turn was the inspiration for FF Bau while House Chalet is all these influences rolled into one mixed with ITC Avant Garde Gothic and ITC Bauhaus… need I go on?
So I suggest you learn first, then look harder and think twice before posting. No offense…
The previous version of the site, with its “code chic” aesthetic, has been made more accessible (and retail-friendly), although they haven’t changed the name, which was part of the original concept.
I too started out with a “no bitmap images” (well, just a small logo) homepage, but realized that it might be a good idea to give visitors some idea of what the fonts look like.
Like Judas, I’m not excited by Akkurat. It’s a re-working of minor themes.
But I suspect there’s a market for it, based on the dominance of conservative retro-modernism, with art directors looking more closely at the classics of that era, and becoming interested in subtle distinctions and revisitations to the mid-20th century.
I’ve done similarly “uninspired” faces, and their virtue is their subtle workmanship and functionality, not their imaginative design.
The decision for a foundry is: how far do you specialize in a product genre, as part of your brand marketing?
The reality is that there is not a big market these days for innovative typefaces, so perhaps Lineto has the right idea, launching with a hardcore, uncompromising site and product line, then becoming more slick and flashy with a conservative/broader product line.
Like Judas, I�m not excited by Akkurat. It�s a re-working of minor themes.
But unlike Judas, you voice your concerns in an informed and respectful manner, without resorting to petty personal attacks. :)
I too dispair at the apparent inability of the majority of art directors and graphic designers to recognize true innovation in type design. Nostal-chic is the flavour of the day, and it’s up to the more adventurous designers to try and convert the audience at large, one design at a time.
I visited the Lineto site to see and possibly review for The Design Weblog the new fonts. While I ultimately did see the fonts–typical of new, small type foundries: mediocre knock-offs of established typefaces and/or audacious display faces with extremely limited use, I feel–the website’s poor usability (took forever to load, didn’t function at all with Opera) and contempt for the visitors by their browser choices prompted me to write a very different review.
I would suggest that very few users of Opera would ever buy from Lineto even if the site worked great in their browser. It’s almost a matter of tribes: Windows Opera folks are not going to design with Lineto fonts. Lineto is just playing to their crowd, which is literate, good humored designer types.
“I would suggest that very few users of Opera would ever buy from Lineto even if the site worked great in their browser. It�s almost a matter of tribes: Windows Opera folks are not going to design with Lineto fonts. Lineto is just playing to their crowd, which is literate, good humored designer types.”
I’m not sure what a half-shirt is, but I know what you mean by the Apple zealots, and those people make up part of the crowd I speak of. But it’s mostly made up of older designers who love Wim Crouwel and Cornel Windlin and younger designers who are discovering them for the first time.
Sure – but the problem is that you seem to see a deficiency in people who are not charmed by self-conscious, superficial design. Text fonts are the beef. Where’s the beef?
Reading your review, Mr. Pariah, I suspect that you just didn’t get what Lineto is about. Is it a generation gap thing, perhaps? To call their faces knock-offs is close to stupidity. While not all their fonts may have the same quality or aspire to the same level of originality, there are a number of truly interesting, innovative and unique designs.
One thing that I do find interesting is precisely that these designers do not seem to feel to urge to appeal to everyone. Is that a crime? Quite frankly, i wouldn’t be surprised if the people at Lineto are relieved that you won’t be using their fonts.
PS.
Ceterum Censeo: Internet Explorer really does suck.
Of course you can’t please everybody. But who/what should one try to please? It’s more ego-trippy to please people who tend to fawn (other designers), but is it more worthwhile than pleasing people who might not even realize they’re being pleased (readers)?
I’ve had it up to here with faddish display fonts.
Oh come ON Hrant! :) Fair enough you’ve had it up to here with faddish display fonts, but I don’t think the designs on Lineto exactly qualify as such. On the contrary: I have yet to see their typefaces used in self-conscious design or lifestyle mags. For example I think that types by House Industries are more likely to be considered as “self-conscious, superficial designs” (Hrant’s words, guys, personally I like what they’re doing so don’t start!) because they specifically try to emulate the popular classics which are all the rage: Chalet = Helvomita/ITC Bauhaus/ITC Avant Garde Gothic, Neutra = Fartura/Avenir etc.
Lineto’s stuff is far more challenging, demanding and frankly hard to use in some specific cases. They have cornered a well-defined niche market which is not interested in run-off-the-mill plain vanilla Bitstream designs that Pariah Burke likes so much.
Just admit that their stuff is not for you, period. We won’t hold it against you. ;P And talking about “where’s the beef”, what’s wrong with being a vegetarian? :D
A client pointed us to a recent review of our new website by Mr. Pariah Burke, who also posted a link to his review on typographica.org. We find his judgement of our fonts and our website unfounded, ill-informed, and unreasonably hostile, mixing fact, fiction and his personal view of the world at will. We would like to point out the following:
– Opera 6 is an old browser with a negligible share of the market; the analysis of our site visitor data showed virtually no Opera 6 users. The site works remarkably well on a wide variety of browsers on both platforms and performs perfectly well in Opera 7.
– The site had been tested at a variety of connection speeds and was continually optimised to ensure fast loading times. We have had no complaints so far about slow loading times, not from mac or pc users – on the contrary.
– The site has been extensively tested on Mac and PC, on all important browsers, to ensure that the site works well on both platforms, for any kind of user.
– Our browser bar comment about Internet Explorer was referring to the Mac version of said product. We do not have a problem with Microsoft, but we’ll happily continue ridiculing bad software.
– Our typefaces have been produced by noted designers. They represent an aesthetic choice which you may or may not approve of. They are carefully designed and professionally engineered software tools, and we proudly defend their artistic integrity and their technological standard.
I had the pleasure of getting to know the LINETO founders S.M�ller (pronto) and C.Windlin on a personal level. I rarely encountered professionals on their level, who are not only very experienced designers, but are very aware of what they do.
People may have an different approach to typedesign and taste, but the quality of LINETO products shouldnt and cannot be ignored.
‘Hoedje af!’ as we would say in Holland. (‘hats off’)
Thank you for sharing Lineto’s point of view. As you may have read, the argument got rather heated on the part of a Lineto supporter whose vehemence and demeanor implied that he had some official or professional connection with Lineto.com. I’m very glad to hear from an authorized respresentative of Lineto, and a cooler head at that.
Now, to your comments:
“Opera 6 is an old browser with a negligible share of the market; the analysis of our site visitor data showed virtually no Opera 6 users. The site works remarkably well on a wide variety of browsers on both platforms and performs perfectly well in Opera 7.”
You ARE aware, aren’t you, that most Opera users configure their browsers to misidentify themselves as IE? From Browser Trends (http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat_trends.htm): “One survey in early 2004 revealed that ~72% of Opera users had configured it to identify itself as Internet Explorer.” This is often the case because some sites still, after three years, intentionally filter out Opera (they filter out everything but IE, not necessarily just Opera).
If you read the comments above you’ll note a few important things: First, I tested in Opera 6.5 with the results reported. Second, as Matt noted, it does work in Opera 7. And, finally, that load times are horrible on a PC, not just for me but for the respondant Shambo–and from others who have contacted me privately.
As you asked, I did check back with the site. Indeed it does load quite a lot faster. I timed it at 23 seconds from manual launch of the popup to full render of the popup page. Previously I had been counting that time in minutes. Nice work!
I’m glad to see my review of Lineto.com led to positive change in that you’ve been able to dramatically speed up the site’s loading.
Your browser comment bar doesn’t draw a distinction between the Mac and Windows versions of Internet Explorer. If you are adamant about making your point regarding IE on the Mac, may I suggest changing the statement to read “Internet Explorer on the Mac is a piece of shit”. As it is, you’re shouting that to 85+% of the Windows Internet users who might come to Lineto looking to buy.
Regarding my website design… If you look around, you’ll note that this blog is part of a large cohesive network of blogs, Weblogsinc.com. The look is standardized across all blogs in the network, and the focus is on the accessibility and legibility of a diverse selection of content for a variety of audiences. Though I didn’t design this blog, I have no issues with it for its given purpose: To deliver textual content.
If you’d really like to compare web design aesthetics, then please, look at something I have actually designed: http://portfolio.iampariah.com.
Re: Letraset: I’m not going to debate you on Letraset vs. Lineto. That’s not a discussion I intend to get into. However, I honestly just grabbed a name out of thin air when I wrote that. I actually went to Adobe to see what they might have new to follow up Brioso Pro.
Just for the record, I’m currently surfing the web on a PC, which is at least four years old, using IE with Windows ME. Lineto’s site works great… just as great as when I used my brand-new powerbook with safari.
Before the Lineto re-launch, I was not familiar with them, or their products. However, after following the critique posted on this site as well as on Typographica, I would like to say that I find all of the arguments posted against Lineto to be misgrounded. Honestly, they all sound a bit pedantic to me.
Mr. Wills, I still have no idea why you wouldn’t want your magazine to use Lineto’s fonts. I would look at the fonts themselves; they are interesting pieces or work. Ms. Knoll’s pride in them should not disqualify them from your use.
And Mr. Burke, you seem to be on a witch-hunt.
Besides, IMHO IE is a piece-of-shit, whether 85% of the market uses it or not. I won’t fault Lineto for calling a spade a spade.
Yes, the speed has dramatically improved. As Ms. Knolls wrote, and I confirmed, Lineto has dramatically improved the speed of Lineto.com. By Lineto’s own admission (via spokeswoman Knolls), the site was slow. It is no longer slow, so comparing now to then is irrelevent.
“Pedantic,” is an apt characterization of the defensive arguments against my original (short) review of the site. If you meant to apply it to me, I beg to differ.
As is often the case online, one must be as detailed as possible when engaged in a debate lest someone scream foul. As it is, many often scream foul when the details have been attended to and often in contradiction to evidence and logic. When even that fails, a few get frustrated and revert to elementary school personal barbs. In these last statements I speak in a generalization for Internet-based debates, inclusive, in parts (but not necessarily whole), of this debate.
Case in point: Robert U. Preissner’s rants on this subject. After trying pedantic debate he failed. Then, finding no grounds to debate the points of the review and ensueing discussion, he attempted to the best of his limited ability to twist the debate into a Mac vs. PC argument. When that failed, he quit the debate in exasperation–he continued to follow it however, as the server logs reveal.
Even Knolls tried personal attack by criticizing me–I never made it personal to Knolls, before or after. Then she tried to compare her site to my own, while failing to actually look at my site. I had no hand in the aesthetic of the current Weblogs, Inc. Network site interface.
“You seem to be on a witch-hunt.” Really? How so? Were I on a witch-hunt, as the term has been defined by the previous sixty years, I would make it a habit to seek out entities similar to Lineto to burn at the stake.
While I have admittedly burnt Lineto at the stake, I did so by virtue of publishing my honest review (admittedly, by design, short and not terribly detailed) of Lineto.com and its six new fonts. Prior to, and since, the publication of that review I have not sought out or burnt at the stake any other candidates. I have, however, visited the websites of, and reviewed, other type foundries and their typefaces.
Were I on a witch-hunt–unless I’m misunderstanding your use of the term or your intended implications by its use–I would, with extreme prejudice, burn at the stake each candidate I found in Lineto’s line of work. I have since reviewed other, more original typeface designs by other foundries (one published so far, others pending). If you believe that my witch-hunt centers around poorly crafted websites, then you are also incorrect in that respect. I visit dozens and often hundreds of sites per day; many are poorly coded. I do not review them.
I burnt Lineto at the stake for the three reasons succintly cited in the original post’s title, “Lineto, New Site, New Fonts, Big Mouth”:
– They had a new website–which failed to work in some cases, presented potentially offensive and off-putting content in others, and had a very well done and exceptionally intuitive navigation system).
– They released six new fonts–which failed to strike me and others (read above, both here and at typographica.org) much less as “new” as “cloned”.
– Lineto.com, with its harsh (I’m not judging or arguing the validity of the statement; that’s not my point.) and potentially offensive anti-IE statement, the statement I noted appeared in FireFox’s titlebar (as I later stated, I can see this as the joke explained by Jacques), and the list of magazines and newspapers not using Lineto’s fonts (ironic in light of the rest, I felt), presented the image, in my estimation, of a company with a big mouth.
“Besides, IMHO IE is a piece-of-shit, whether 85% of the market uses it or not. I won�t fault Lineto for calling a spade a spade.” Whether IE is, or is not, in fact a piece of shit is not the issue here. If you read back through the comments, my point is and has always been, that Lineto’s statement to that effect is a poor business decision as it will potentially offend and drive away 85% of Internet users, thus costing Lineto that potential revenue and good will.
In the course of this discussion I have made no claims as to either IE’s qualifications or worthyness of the “piece of shit” ranking. I quoted a published statistic; nothing more, nothing less. My point is as I stated immediately above.
I will not enter into a discussion about whether IE is or is not a good browser, a browser better or worse than any other, or even if it deserves its overwhelming marketshare. If you followed the news on the Eolas lawsuit and its aftermath, you know that even Microsoft’s bitterest rivals have moved past such debate. I certainly shall not enter into it.
Let’s be entirely pragmatic about this for a moment. I would like to point out that my review has led to positive change on Lineto.com. Had I not posted my review, Lineto would have lost an untold number of visitors due to the excessive load time of the site. As a direct result of my review, the site loads much, much faster. Now fewer people (if any) will give up and leave because of the load time.
Also, as a direct result of my review, Lineto.com is seeing an increase in traffic. They may even be selling more fonts as a result.
So, in reality, how harmful WAS my review to Lineto?
OMG…what a horrible site. Far from being “trend-setting” as someone above said. It’s lacking “design” to such a degree, that it’s approaching anti-design. That navigation is the biggest pain in the ass. They should have spent less time trying to find a way to make a frame draggable and more in trying to find the most appropriate way to sell their fonts.
memo to self: heated online argument over merits of website redesign and consequent publicity for fonts thereon — shows viral marketing potential.
memo to foundries: critic available to administer flagellation/eulogy, will work for fonts as perq. (software reviews a specialty, big ticket items preferred.)
(nb Mr Burke et al not implied to have engaged in so venal an activity.)
By now, we all know what the no-frills/no-nonsense approach for a well-organised type site looks like (e.g. typography.com, etc.), and as a designer and font user I appreciate this kind of site.
But for me, Lineto is the first refreshing type site I have seen in a very long time. What does “most appropriate way” mean? It’s like telling Kraftwerk off for their minimalist lyrics or for not using acoustic guitars.
Calling Lineto’s new site anti-design kind of imples that in order to classify as “design” there needs to be obvious “designed-ness” or extra layers of aesthetic blather.
I remember Lineto’s old site, which had a similar approach, but was technically much simpler. This new version is a brilliant development of their lo-tech ideas. It’s still very understated but highly sophisticated, simple and effective, and laughs in the face of any flash-engineered site.
I find it entertaining and suprising – it’s a totally fresh way of presenting fonts online. To me, that’s a powerful design-statement.
“memo to self: heated online argument over merits of website redesign and consequent publicity for fonts thereon � shows viral marketing potential.”
There’s no such thing as bad publicity.
“memo to foundries: critic available to administer flagellation/eulogy, will work for fonts as perq. (software reviews a specialty, big ticket items preferred.)”
ROFL
“(nb Mr Burke et al not implied to have engaged in so venal an activity.)”
Nope. When I find a typeface/family that shows genuine typographic (and pragmatic) merit, I say so.
I wouldn’t say Lineto.com is “anti-design”. Putting aside the question of how well or if it works, it’s a very utilitarian site. It isn’t terribly nice to look at, but it does present content cleanly.
I really dig the navigation system. It’s simple, efficient, and intuitive to even the most moronic user. Lineto clearly put some thought into user interface design for this new site.
Now that is a nifty website. Slick looks, fun navigation, and the idea to cull news headlines from the BBC is wikkid. The TypeWriter� is very handy. Tres nice.
�Lisa Knoll, the hardest working woman in font business�
LOL!
Far out! Forward thinking design, trend-setting design is a beautiful thing.
Why does a warmed-over clone of Franklin Gothic warrant a blog entry that lauds it? Look at Akkurat!@. Lineto is obviously not the cutting edge foundry it once pretended to be. Why doesn’t typocraphi.ca et al highlight the obvious cloning?
This is NOT a personal atack. It is a serious question about the judgement of the total numbness expressed by verbage such as “Everyone’s favorite Swiss mod foundry” and “trend setting design” (this for a face that is now 101 years old! – trend set that!@).
Is this a serious blog or what?
Judas – Your previous comment was deleted because it was misplaced under the House Industries article. I usually email comment authors if they’ve made such a technical error, but because you insist on posting under a false identity and email address I had no way to contact you.
I find Akkurat more of a combination of Helvetica/AkGrot and gothics such as Franklin than a clone of FG. It is more original than many recent sans releases.
Personally, I love their new site. It is entirely original, well crafted, thoughtful, and very memorable. That alone is quite a feat these days!
hey!
I like the site. I have no critisism of it whatsoever. I apologize if my critisism of the typeface Akkurat is offensive to you. While I believe I have an extremely positive attitude towards progresive and new type design, it is also true that my disposition towards what I see as unoriginal and loosely copied work is negative.
If negative remarks about copied works is a problem, then I would suggest that type design is not for you. The fact is, it comes with the terrritory.
Again, as I said, I love their site, it’s the copied, unoriginal, and lame content that sucks.
Judas, your statements ignore the fundamental fact that Akkurat really doesn’t look very close to Franklin Gothic at all.
If Lineto, their site, their work, their projects and their fonts are NOT fresh and original and tasty and everything else you would wish for as a designer: what is!?
Judas, I must say I was pretty amused by your rant over Akkurat, because I feel you’re quite off the mark.
I tried really hard to see what you meant, but the only (superficial) resemblance to Franklin Gothic I could find has to be its double-story “g”. For the rest Akkurat is a very different face altogether.
First of all, while Franklin Gothic has a distinct classical thick/thin weight distribution which becomes apparent in the bolder weights, Akkurat is a perfectly mono-linear face. This lends Akkurat a very European atmosphere, while Franklin Gothic is unmistakably American.
Furthermore, if you look at the general character traits, you’ll notice a large amount of similarities with those European grotesks, like AG Grotesk/Helvetica/FF Bau’s little tail on the lc ‘a’, the typical lc ‘l’ from AG Schulbuch/FF Schulbuch, the Helvetica uc ‘G’, The Univers-style numerals and so on.
But it gets even more interesting when you start looking beyond those superficial design traits and notice the character skeleton: suddenly you realize the face’s structure is based on the geometric grotesk models, specifically Neuzeit Grotesk. You can see this very clearly in the lc ‘a’ and ‘s’ for example.
So, to conclude it’s safe to say that Akkurat is an interesting new design which plays off its various inspirations to produce a new and original face. To use an analogy from the music scene: Prince was considered an original artist, even though it was obvious he was heavily influenced by Jimmy Hendrix, James Brown and Sly Stone. He didn’t blatantly copy those artists, but assimilated their styles to produce something entirely new and exciting.
Also, if we were to extrapolate your reasoning that Akkurat has no right to exist because you perceive it as being a “copied work”, then one could argue that the same goes for Unica because it looks like Univers which in turn bears a resemblance to Helvetica which in fact is a reworked Akzidenz Grotesk that was based on Schelter & Giesecke’s Grotesk which in turn was the inspiration for FF Bau while House Chalet is all these influences rolled into one mixed with ITC Avant Garde Gothic and ITC Bauhaus… need I go on?
So I suggest you learn first, then look harder and think twice before posting. No offense…
Akkurat is no more Franklin Gothic than I am Christy Turlington. Puhlease!
Troubleman: Right on.
Tiffany: NOW you tell us…
hhp
The previous version of the site, with its “code chic” aesthetic, has been made more accessible (and retail-friendly), although they haven’t changed the name, which was part of the original concept.
I too started out with a “no bitmap images” (well, just a small logo) homepage, but realized that it might be a good idea to give visitors some idea of what the fonts look like.
Emigre: above the fray.
Like Judas, I’m not excited by Akkurat. It’s a re-working of minor themes.
But I suspect there’s a market for it, based on the dominance of conservative retro-modernism, with art directors looking more closely at the classics of that era, and becoming interested in subtle distinctions and revisitations to the mid-20th century.
I’ve done similarly “uninspired” faces, and their virtue is their subtle workmanship and functionality, not their imaginative design.
The decision for a foundry is: how far do you specialize in a product genre, as part of your brand marketing?
The reality is that there is not a big market these days for innovative typefaces, so perhaps Lineto has the right idea, launching with a hardcore, uncompromising site and product line, then becoming more slick and flashy with a conservative/broader product line.
Many reinventions in the lifecycle of a business.
Like Judas, I�m not excited by Akkurat. It�s a re-working of minor themes.
But unlike Judas, you voice your concerns in an informed and respectful manner, without resorting to petty personal attacks. :)
I too dispair at the apparent inability of the majority of art directors and graphic designers to recognize true innovation in type design. Nostal-chic is the flavour of the day, and it’s up to the more adventurous designers to try and convert the audience at large, one design at a time.
Oh well, hasn’t it always been like that?…
>Oh well, hasn�t it always been like that?�
Except for the occasional revolution, e.g. desktop.
I visited the Lineto site to see and possibly review for The Design Weblog the new fonts. While I ultimately did see the fonts–typical of new, small type foundries: mediocre knock-offs of established typefaces and/or audacious display faces with extremely limited use, I feel–the website’s poor usability (took forever to load, didn’t function at all with Opera) and contempt for the visitors by their browser choices prompted me to write a very different review.
It’s at http://design.weblogsinc.com/entry/0916814146856669/ if you’re interested.
I would suggest that very few users of Opera would ever buy from Lineto even if the site worked great in their browser. It’s almost a matter of tribes: Windows Opera folks are not going to design with Lineto fonts. Lineto is just playing to their crowd, which is literate, good humored designer types.
“I would suggest that very few users of Opera would ever buy from Lineto even if the site worked great in their browser. It�s almost a matter of tribes: Windows Opera folks are not going to design with Lineto fonts. Lineto is just playing to their crowd, which is literate, good humored designer types.”
That’s just plain ridiculous.
> literate, good humored designer types.
You mean the ones that wear half-shirts and would sell their mother for an Apple Cinema Display?
hhp
I’m not sure what a half-shirt is, but I know what you mean by the Apple zealots, and those people make up part of the crowd I speak of. But it’s mostly made up of older designers who love Wim Crouwel and Cornel Windlin and younger designers who are discovering them for the first time.
Sure – but the problem is that you seem to see a deficiency in people who are not charmed by self-conscious, superficial design. Text fonts are the beef. Where’s the beef?
hhp
People who don’t get Lineto’s schtick aren’t deficient, they’re just not their audience.
Yes, there are no text familes. Lineto specializes in display type.
Reading your review, Mr. Pariah, I suspect that you just didn’t get what Lineto is about. Is it a generation gap thing, perhaps? To call their faces knock-offs is close to stupidity. While not all their fonts may have the same quality or aspire to the same level of originality, there are a number of truly interesting, innovative and unique designs.
One thing that I do find interesting is precisely that these designers do not seem to feel to urge to appeal to everyone. Is that a crime? Quite frankly, i wouldn’t be surprised if the people at Lineto are relieved that you won’t be using their fonts.
PS.
Ceterum Censeo: Internet Explorer really does suck.
Of course you can’t please everybody. But who/what should one try to please? It’s more ego-trippy to please people who tend to fawn (other designers), but is it more worthwhile than pleasing people who might not even realize they’re being pleased (readers)?
I’ve had it up to here with faddish display fonts.
hhp
Oh come ON Hrant! :) Fair enough you’ve had it up to here with faddish display fonts, but I don’t think the designs on Lineto exactly qualify as such. On the contrary: I have yet to see their typefaces used in self-conscious design or lifestyle mags. For example I think that types by House Industries are more likely to be considered as “self-conscious, superficial designs” (Hrant’s words, guys, personally I like what they’re doing so don’t start!) because they specifically try to emulate the popular classics which are all the rage: Chalet = Helvomita/ITC Bauhaus/ITC Avant Garde Gothic, Neutra = Fartura/Avenir etc.
Lineto’s stuff is far more challenging, demanding and frankly hard to use in some specific cases. They have cornered a well-defined niche market which is not interested in run-off-the-mill plain vanilla Bitstream designs that Pariah Burke likes so much.
Just admit that their stuff is not for you, period. We won’t hold it against you. ;P And talking about “where’s the beef”, what’s wrong with being a vegetarian? :D
Oops Yves, they are used in lifestyle magazines. But isn’t the result beautiful?
Of course they’re not for me – I don’t use fonts.
Vegetarian? What a waste of tastebuds.
hhp
LOL
A client pointed us to a recent review of our new website by Mr. Pariah Burke, who also posted a link to his review on typographica.org. We find his judgement of our fonts and our website unfounded, ill-informed, and unreasonably hostile, mixing fact, fiction and his personal view of the world at will. We would like to point out the following:
– Opera 6 is an old browser with a negligible share of the market; the analysis of our site visitor data showed virtually no Opera 6 users. The site works remarkably well on a wide variety of browsers on both platforms and performs perfectly well in Opera 7.
– The site had been tested at a variety of connection speeds and was continually optimised to ensure fast loading times. We have had no complaints so far about slow loading times, not from mac or pc users – on the contrary.
– The site has been extensively tested on Mac and PC, on all important browsers, to ensure that the site works well on both platforms, for any kind of user.
– Our browser bar comment about Internet Explorer was referring to the Mac version of said product. We do not have a problem with Microsoft, but we’ll happily continue ridiculing bad software.
– Our typefaces have been produced by noted designers. They represent an aesthetic choice which you may or may not approve of. They are carefully designed and professionally engineered software tools, and we proudly defend their artistic integrity and their technological standard.
I had the pleasure of getting to know the LINETO founders S.M�ller (pronto) and C.Windlin on a personal level. I rarely encountered professionals on their level, who are not only very experienced designers, but are very aware of what they do.
People may have an different approach to typedesign and taste, but the quality of LINETO products shouldnt and cannot be ignored.
‘Hoedje af!’ as we would say in Holland. (‘hats off’)
—-Jacques
As posted on The Design Weblog: Lineto, New Site, New Fonts, Big Mouth in response to Ms. Knoll’s comment. Additional third-party commentary was posted subsequent to the below.
—————–
Ms. Knoll,
Thank you for sharing Lineto’s point of view. As you may have read, the argument got rather heated on the part of a Lineto supporter whose vehemence and demeanor implied that he had some official or professional connection with Lineto.com. I’m very glad to hear from an authorized respresentative of Lineto, and a cooler head at that.
Now, to your comments:
“Opera 6 is an old browser with a negligible share of the market; the analysis of our site visitor data showed virtually no Opera 6 users. The site works remarkably well on a wide variety of browsers on both platforms and performs perfectly well in Opera 7.”
You ARE aware, aren’t you, that most Opera users configure their browsers to misidentify themselves as IE? From Browser Trends (http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat_trends.htm): “One survey in early 2004 revealed that ~72% of Opera users had configured it to identify itself as Internet Explorer.” This is often the case because some sites still, after three years, intentionally filter out Opera (they filter out everything but IE, not necessarily just Opera).
If you read the comments above you’ll note a few important things: First, I tested in Opera 6.5 with the results reported. Second, as Matt noted, it does work in Opera 7. And, finally, that load times are horrible on a PC, not just for me but for the respondant Shambo–and from others who have contacted me privately.
As you asked, I did check back with the site. Indeed it does load quite a lot faster. I timed it at 23 seconds from manual launch of the popup to full render of the popup page. Previously I had been counting that time in minutes. Nice work!
I’m glad to see my review of Lineto.com led to positive change in that you’ve been able to dramatically speed up the site’s loading.
Your browser comment bar doesn’t draw a distinction between the Mac and Windows versions of Internet Explorer. If you are adamant about making your point regarding IE on the Mac, may I suggest changing the statement to read “Internet Explorer on the Mac is a piece of shit”. As it is, you’re shouting that to 85+% of the Windows Internet users who might come to Lineto looking to buy.
Regarding my website design… If you look around, you’ll note that this blog is part of a large cohesive network of blogs, Weblogsinc.com. The look is standardized across all blogs in the network, and the focus is on the accessibility and legibility of a diverse selection of content for a variety of audiences. Though I didn’t design this blog, I have no issues with it for its given purpose: To deliver textual content.
If you’d really like to compare web design aesthetics, then please, look at something I have actually designed: http://portfolio.iampariah.com.
Re: Letraset: I’m not going to debate you on Letraset vs. Lineto. That’s not a discussion I intend to get into. However, I honestly just grabbed a name out of thin air when I wrote that. I actually went to Adobe to see what they might have new to follow up Brioso Pro.
Mr. Burke,
I just posted the following on your own blog:
Just for the record, I’m currently surfing the web on a PC, which is at least four years old, using IE with Windows ME. Lineto’s site works great… just as great as when I used my brand-new powerbook with safari.
Before the Lineto re-launch, I was not familiar with them, or their products. However, after following the critique posted on this site as well as on Typographica, I would like to say that I find all of the arguments posted against Lineto to be misgrounded. Honestly, they all sound a bit pedantic to me.
Mr. Wills, I still have no idea why you wouldn’t want your magazine to use Lineto’s fonts. I would look at the fonts themselves; they are interesting pieces or work. Ms. Knoll’s pride in them should not disqualify them from your use.
And Mr. Burke, you seem to be on a witch-hunt.
Besides, IMHO IE is a piece-of-shit, whether 85% of the market uses it or not. I won’t fault Lineto for calling a spade a spade.
Mr. Reynolds:
I just posted this on The Design Weblog:
Yes, the speed has dramatically improved. As Ms. Knolls wrote, and I confirmed, Lineto has dramatically improved the speed of Lineto.com. By Lineto’s own admission (via spokeswoman Knolls), the site was slow. It is no longer slow, so comparing now to then is irrelevent.
“Pedantic,” is an apt characterization of the defensive arguments against my original (short) review of the site. If you meant to apply it to me, I beg to differ.
As is often the case online, one must be as detailed as possible when engaged in a debate lest someone scream foul. As it is, many often scream foul when the details have been attended to and often in contradiction to evidence and logic. When even that fails, a few get frustrated and revert to elementary school personal barbs. In these last statements I speak in a generalization for Internet-based debates, inclusive, in parts (but not necessarily whole), of this debate.
Case in point: Robert U. Preissner’s rants on this subject. After trying pedantic debate he failed. Then, finding no grounds to debate the points of the review and ensueing discussion, he attempted to the best of his limited ability to twist the debate into a Mac vs. PC argument. When that failed, he quit the debate in exasperation–he continued to follow it however, as the server logs reveal.
Even Knolls tried personal attack by criticizing me–I never made it personal to Knolls, before or after. Then she tried to compare her site to my own, while failing to actually look at my site. I had no hand in the aesthetic of the current Weblogs, Inc. Network site interface.
“You seem to be on a witch-hunt.” Really? How so? Were I on a witch-hunt, as the term has been defined by the previous sixty years, I would make it a habit to seek out entities similar to Lineto to burn at the stake.
While I have admittedly burnt Lineto at the stake, I did so by virtue of publishing my honest review (admittedly, by design, short and not terribly detailed) of Lineto.com and its six new fonts. Prior to, and since, the publication of that review I have not sought out or burnt at the stake any other candidates. I have, however, visited the websites of, and reviewed, other type foundries and their typefaces.
Were I on a witch-hunt–unless I’m misunderstanding your use of the term or your intended implications by its use–I would, with extreme prejudice, burn at the stake each candidate I found in Lineto’s line of work. I have since reviewed other, more original typeface designs by other foundries (one published so far, others pending). If you believe that my witch-hunt centers around poorly crafted websites, then you are also incorrect in that respect. I visit dozens and often hundreds of sites per day; many are poorly coded. I do not review them.
I burnt Lineto at the stake for the three reasons succintly cited in the original post’s title, “Lineto, New Site, New Fonts, Big Mouth”:
– They had a new website–which failed to work in some cases, presented potentially offensive and off-putting content in others, and had a very well done and exceptionally intuitive navigation system).
– They released six new fonts–which failed to strike me and others (read above, both here and at typographica.org) much less as “new” as “cloned”.
– Lineto.com, with its harsh (I’m not judging or arguing the validity of the statement; that’s not my point.) and potentially offensive anti-IE statement, the statement I noted appeared in FireFox’s titlebar (as I later stated, I can see this as the joke explained by Jacques), and the list of magazines and newspapers not using Lineto’s fonts (ironic in light of the rest, I felt), presented the image, in my estimation, of a company with a big mouth.
“Besides, IMHO IE is a piece-of-shit, whether 85% of the market uses it or not. I won�t fault Lineto for calling a spade a spade.” Whether IE is, or is not, in fact a piece of shit is not the issue here. If you read back through the comments, my point is and has always been, that Lineto’s statement to that effect is a poor business decision as it will potentially offend and drive away 85% of Internet users, thus costing Lineto that potential revenue and good will.
In the course of this discussion I have made no claims as to either IE’s qualifications or worthyness of the “piece of shit” ranking. I quoted a published statistic; nothing more, nothing less. My point is as I stated immediately above.
I will not enter into a discussion about whether IE is or is not a good browser, a browser better or worse than any other, or even if it deserves its overwhelming marketshare. If you followed the news on the Eolas lawsuit and its aftermath, you know that even Microsoft’s bitterest rivals have moved past such debate. I certainly shall not enter into it.
Let’s be entirely pragmatic about this for a moment. I would like to point out that my review has led to positive change on Lineto.com. Had I not posted my review, Lineto would have lost an untold number of visitors due to the excessive load time of the site. As a direct result of my review, the site loads much, much faster. Now fewer people (if any) will give up and leave because of the load time.
Also, as a direct result of my review, Lineto.com is seeing an increase in traffic. They may even be selling more fonts as a result.
So, in reality, how harmful WAS my review to Lineto?
I wish people would talk this much about text fonts.
hhp
Depends if the content is worth reading.
—Jacques
OMG…what a horrible site. Far from being “trend-setting” as someone above said. It’s lacking “design” to such a degree, that it’s approaching anti-design. That navigation is the biggest pain in the ass. They should have spent less time trying to find a way to make a frame draggable and more in trying to find the most appropriate way to sell their fonts.
memo to self: heated online argument over merits of website redesign and consequent publicity for fonts thereon — shows viral marketing potential.
memo to foundries: critic available to administer flagellation/eulogy, will work for fonts as perq. (software reviews a specialty, big ticket items preferred.)
(nb Mr Burke et al not implied to have engaged in so venal an activity.)
By now, we all know what the no-frills/no-nonsense approach for a well-organised type site looks like (e.g. typography.com, etc.), and as a designer and font user I appreciate this kind of site.
But for me, Lineto is the first refreshing type site I have seen in a very long time. What does “most appropriate way” mean? It’s like telling Kraftwerk off for their minimalist lyrics or for not using acoustic guitars.
Calling Lineto’s new site anti-design kind of imples that in order to classify as “design” there needs to be obvious “designed-ness” or extra layers of aesthetic blather.
I remember Lineto’s old site, which had a similar approach, but was technically much simpler. This new version is a brilliant development of their lo-tech ideas. It’s still very understated but highly sophisticated, simple and effective, and laughs in the face of any flash-engineered site.
I find it entertaining and suprising – it’s a totally fresh way of presenting fonts online. To me, that’s a powerful design-statement.
“memo to self: heated online argument over merits of website redesign and consequent publicity for fonts thereon � shows viral marketing potential.”
There’s no such thing as bad publicity.
“memo to foundries: critic available to administer flagellation/eulogy, will work for fonts as perq. (software reviews a specialty, big ticket items preferred.)”
ROFL
“(nb Mr Burke et al not implied to have engaged in so venal an activity.)”
Nope. When I find a typeface/family that shows genuine typographic (and pragmatic) merit, I say so.
I wouldn’t say Lineto.com is “anti-design”. Putting aside the question of how well or if it works, it’s a very utilitarian site. It isn’t terribly nice to look at, but it does present content cleanly.
I really dig the navigation system. It’s simple, efficient, and intuitive to even the most moronic user. Lineto clearly put some thought into user interface design for this new site.
awful website, unnecessarily hard to purchase fonts, gave up.
poor show.